u/WeWantTheFunk120 - originally from r/GenZhou
Just to make things clear before I start, this is NOT because I want to give Liberals the benefit of the doubt. Liberals are useless idiots for Imperialism and Western Chauvinist that must be opposed all the same. Why I dislike calling them Fascist is more pedantic.
It’s pretty common for MLs to say “Scratch a Liberal, a Fascist bleeds” or the famous Stalin quote “Social Democracy is objectively the moderate form of Fascism”. Here’s why I disagree with these assessments and don’t think this is the case" Fascism as an ideology is inherently ANTI-liberalism and ANTI-democracy, therefore they are completely incompatible and opposite to Western Liberalism.
When I was 18/19, I was curious about what Fascism actually was and delved deep into researching its ideology. This was because I found out the American school system and MSM lied to me about America being the beacon of Freedom and Democracy^™ and doing everything overseas out of altruism, thus I began to wonder what else they were lying to me about. I began wondering if they were also lying to me about Fascism and Hitler, so I read the Doctrine of Fascism by Mussolini and Gentile and parts of Mein Kampf (before I got bored and dropped it). Now, obviously I was not convinced at all by them, as the ideas espoused in them are incredibly easy to debunk, but I was surprised to find out Fascism actually had a defined ideology behind it.
What Fascism, as outlined by Mussolini and Gentile themselves, advocated for is total and complete authoritarianism within a mixed, Corporatist economy. Fascism is fundamentally opposed to Communism, Anarchism, Liberalism (here in the Classical sense), and Democracy. Fascism believes absolute Statism and the state controlling all sectors of society as well as openly advocating for Cults of Personality. Basically, real Fascism is unironically what Liberal propaganda thinks North Korea is. Fascism entirely rejects Classical Liberalism (what we in the US today call Libertarianism) and free-market capitalism, as well as Social Liberalism (What makes up todays so-called “American Left”):
"Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and the economic sphere. The importance of liberalism in the 19th century should not be exaggerated for present day polemical purposes, nor should we make of one of the many doctrines which flourished in that century a religion for mankind for the present and for all time to come. " - Page 5.
Fascists were clearly opposed to the Laissez-faire capitalism advocated for by todays US Conservatives and Libertarians. And this was shown in practice by the fact that by 1939, 4/5 of Italy’s economy was State-owned and Nazi Germany had incredible power over its private corporations.
Fascists advocated for Corporatism/National Syndicalism. A sort of highly-regulated State Capitalism in which the Bourgeoisie and Proletariat would cooperate with each other through the Fascist state rather than abolish class altogether:
" No individuals or groups (political parties, cultural associations, economic unions, social classes) outside the State. Fascism is therefore opposed to Socialism to which unity within the State (which amalgamates classes into a single economic and ethical reality) is unknown, and which sees in history nothing but the class struggle. Fascism is likewise opposed to trade unionism as a class weapon. But when brought within the orbit of the State, Fascism recognizes the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State." - Page 2
So this is why I don’t believe in calling Western Liberals, Conservatives and Libertarians “Fascists”, because the ideology is fundamentally incompatible and opposed to them. There is a reason why after murdering all the Communist and Socialists, Fascists then went on to ruthlessly persecute the Liberals. And the reason I am making a big deal out of this is because we can all agree that Fascist has been obscenely overused as an insult to the point of meaning absolutely nothing today. It’s bad enough we have Anarcunts (such as the dumbshits on r/tankiejerk) calling everyone and everything under the sun fascist, or Conservative grifters like Ben Shapiro and Steven Crowder saying that Communism is Fascist, I don’t think we should further contribute to its misuse. This does not mean Liberals are still not the enemy, but I wouldn’t call them Fascists. I believe we should only reserve the term for people who are actually Fascists by every definition of the word.
If you disagree, please let me know why. I am interested to hear your opinion.
u/High_Speed_Idiot - originally from r/GenZhouMy thing with taking the fascists at their word is they’re either in on the grift or themselves manipulated/taken advantage of by capital and so their very idealist ideology, outside of aesthetic trappings, is not really what is going on under the hood of any fascist state. You point out that Italy had a large amount of industry under state control but as others pointed out that was in the lead up to war time where they also were suffering from the depression - originally they lead the world in privatization, same as nazi germany. I think its kind of similar to how the proponents of crypto currencies spin (and many likely fully believe in) these lies about decentralized currency giving power to the people and ending the tyranny of fiat currency and etc etc but we can all see in reality its just a speculative asset that largely enriches those who already have capital.
I agree with you that we really shouldn’t be calling liberals or conservatives fascists, or at the least not calling working class people who’ve duped into siding with liberal/conservative politicians. But at the same time political projects sponsored/enacted by the bourgeoisie like neoliberalism or libertarianism are very fascist in a materialist sense though they lack the classical fascist ideology that was present in European fascist movements - this I think is largely because fascism is unique to the countries/cultures in which it arises. In the US for example there was never anywhere near the amount of socialist threat to capital that Europe had, likewise US workers (especially after all the red scares, mccarthyist purges and the cold war conditioning) do not identify with the sort of somewhat collectivist ethos of national syndicalism/corporatism, and certainly not any kind of “national socialism” - this was effective in the time and place that it happened because of the conditions of that time and place.
We see that neoliberalism achieves many of the material goals of fascism: Crushing of worker power/rights/labor protections, privatization, setting up the state/economy for the benefit of the haut bourgeoisie’s profit accumulation, mass imprisonment/slave labor, brazen imperialism, etc. but it doesn’t require the same early-mid 20th century collectivist ideological social control nor do we see the open dictatorship and open discarding of liberal democracy - instead, socially, we see the rise of hyper-individualism and the maintenance of the façade of liberal democracy that is very obviously not democratic in the least to anyone who takes the time to peek behind the curtain.
The ideology of libertarianism even more so than neoliberalism (which is more of a explicit political project than a “pure ideology” sniff) seems to be the modern echo of fascist ideology in that it’s purely idealist and more of a grift to convince followers to believe in it than it is any functional way to give people the freedoms it promises. Almost like the OG fascist ‘rebirth myth’ it harkens back to the glory of a supposedly better past - but instead of the recreation of Rome, or a tenuous claim to an ancient ‘master race’ ascending to its rightful place as ruler of other races, libertarianism glorifies the rugged individualism, self reliance, entrepreneurial spirit and “bootstraps for everyone” US mythology of the classical liberal period, before the ‘evil statists’ came in with their ‘big government’ and ‘took our freedom’. Of course any cursory study of the history of capitalism shows this entire concept to be entirely silly, the ‘statists’ have always been the capitalists, we’re all aware of the marxist conception of the state and its history so I don’t need to get into that here, but the point stands that libertarianism cannot be put into practice any more than the ‘class collaboration’ of classical fascism could result in anything but the continued rule of the bourgeoisie. It’s purely a grift, an undeliverable promise that sounds amazing to the masses that exist here and now, just as the original fascists promises sounded good to the people then and there.
So overall I do agree that we shouldn’t just call liberals/conservatives fascists, but at the same time we should absolutely be aware just how much these bourgeoisie sponsored movements like neoliberalism and libertarianism are a new type of fascism that is unique to the conditions and prevailing attitudes of the era that we live in.
At least that’s my take, would love to hear people’s thoughts.