u/OverQuestion1159 - originally from r/GenZhou
What I mean by this is, I think it can be agreed that pornography is highly exploitative and has plenty of negatives in it’s production and distribution. Yet it seems condemning it is controversial even among those that profess to be socialists, anarchists etc. You’ll get called swerf, puritan etc just because you don’t think it’s good. Strange for people with such principles not to be opposed to a racist, misognystic and rotten industry. So what exactly is the cause of leftists (I should specify western leftists, i’m sure it’s different in other parts of the world, particulary in countries that suffer from sex trafficking) that suddenly turn into ancaps when it comes to this topic
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou[removed]
u/CurBoney - originally from r/GenZhouno leftist that is anti prostitution wants them thrown in jail. they want the criminalization of Johns and pimps, not the actual prostitutes
u/DilbertLookingGuy - originally from r/GenZhouBut that would reduce demand and would hurt the prostitutes. Similar kind of thing to sanctioning a country.
u/CurBoney - originally from r/GenZhoureducing demand is good as long as alternatives are provided. look at the nordic model for ending prostitution.
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou[removed]
u/choosenoneoftheabove - originally from r/GenZhouif after we have abolished the conditions of poverty and unemployment somebody attempts to prostitute themselves to make a living they are committing labor desertion. And holy shit once again the regulate sex work in socialism argument. Ah yes, all of women’s bodies should be under the democratic and collective control of the masses! So very progressive.
u/Dhalym - originally from r/GenZhouNot all sex work is done by women.
Again, are we going to jail people who voluntarily choose to have sex with others in exchange for things? If we do, isn’t that a more heavy handed form of control?
Also, what’s wrong with regulating an activity? We do that all the time. I think the weekly STD tests mandated by Vegas is good idea, though the tests should be free.
There’s also the issue of what to do now under capitalism. Given that the conditions for removing poverty and unemployment aren’t here, should we still jail insistent sex workers?
u/choosenoneoftheabove - originally from r/GenZhouyes we are if they keep doing it over and over after they’ve been given ample opportunity to stop. labor desertion is labor desertion. He who does not work shall not eat. not to mention the damage the sex trade does to women as a whole. If somebody can buy one of you they think they can buy all of you. I’m always gonna be viewed as a sexual commodity so long as women are sold. It destroys solidarity. Read Kollontai’s prostitution and the ways of fighting it and abt what practices the soviet union took towards the few who tried to keep prostituting themselves.
and tell me, what is socialism? the collective control of economic activity. the state regulating and directing industry. are you going to tell me its a better deal for women if instead of being used by the public in prostitution they are used and ran by the public? that its somehow better if the board of planners says you’ll fuck these 50 guys than a pimp or pure circumstance does? disgusting.
u/Dhalym - originally from r/GenZhouDoes it qualify as desertion if they work their mandated state approved job while also exchanging sex for some good or service when they’re off the clock? I’d imagine this would still not be acceptable to you even if they did the approved work.
Typically, current day regulations don’t tell the sex workers how much they work in places where their work is legal. They mandate certain health protocol to protect the workers. Would you oppose mandated free STD screenings if such work were currently legal? This also one of the few jobs where a worker can discriminate against clients for any reason, as is their right.
Preferably, they’d be working for themselves (either alone or in a co-op), but currently there is still a lot of standard private exploitation.
To clarify, I don’t like this. I’m just explaining that IF the work were to exist, regulating it so that it has different freedoms and restrictions, is in their interest.
Ideally, no one in the world would ever voluntarily choose to do this if given a viable alternative. However, I just can’t imagine a world were there is absolutely no one who is like this.
Where we differ is that you see value in punitive measures, while I don’t. I prefer to rely strictly on non-punitive incentives, even if they aren’t perfect, because jailing them seems to cause greater overall suffering.
I found the Kollontai paper. I’ll try to read it soon. Maybe it’ll change my mind.https://www.marxists.org/archive/kollonta/1921/prostitution.htm
Do you recommend any sources for learning about “what practices the soviet union took towards the few who tried to keep prostituting themselves.”?
Also, finally, the last question remains of how to handle this under capitalism right now. Should we jail them today?
u/choosenoneoftheabove - originally from r/GenZhouit would no longer be desertion in that case, but there is in fact no reason to believe that would last more than a few years and only in the former imperialist nations anyway. People need to be socialized into thinking this work is ok, into thinking they are so worthless as to be able to do it, etc. There are no people who are “naturally inclined” to do so, thats just naturalization of sex/gender which is reactionary nonsense. Women or men aren’t natural groups, no traits we possess are natural. Everything is social and political. Socialist society doesn’t do any of ill socialization like this. Even the socialisms of past that have overall not solved the women’s question, revolutionized women’s place in society to the extent that prostitution WAS abolished. It still isn’t ok to allow the selling of sex because it is still an exploitative and unequal relationship which destroys solidarity with women. Ultimately if some white woman in the imperial core can’t handle standing against the sex trade I don’t think its terrible to punitively change that.
and nobody ever suggests jailing them today, nobody even suggested jailing them in yesteryear, the ussr early on would give them jobs, if they refused, they’d do this a couple of times, until finally they got placed in labor prison and then they left and didn’t do it again cause gulags worked.