u/AllHeilWilson - originally from r/GenZhou
I am soon participating in a local seminar discussing whether China is a socialist country or a newly emerging imperialist power. I expect Neo-trotskyist presence to be extremely strong. Their main argument is (predicted to be) as follows:

  1. Chinese revolution is not a proletarian revolution, but a national liberation movement led by the non-comprador, national bourgeoisie (Their evidence is that Mao emphasized the Chinese people and his theory of the people’s state outlined in “On the People’s Democracy” contains ideas of bourgeois nationalism)
  2. Citing Isabella Weber’s “How China avoided Shock Therapy”, that China supposedly appropriated surplus value from the country-side, exploiting the peasantry and thereby supporting state capitalism under Mao’s rule
  3. China is not a socialist country, but a state capitalist one (Whatever that means)
  4. Repression of sexual/ethnic minorities (the “Uyghur Genocide”…)
  5. Export oriented strategy underscores China’s subservience to the global neocolonial system (Its participation in UN peacekeeping campaigns are attempts at extending its military arm to enforce value transfer into China (!)
  6. China’s Belt and Road initiative as an expression of its desire to export finance capital abroad
  7. Exploitation of the domestic working class

To be clear, they already understand that US and western imperialism is the leading force of imperialism in the world today. They support the DPRK (whilst denouncing it as a state capitalist country) against US aggression.

Their theoretical line is somewhat similar to the Socialist Worker’s Party in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Workers_Party_(UK)

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/52023/Chinas+champions+of+state+capitalism

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/49999/Imperialist+rivalries+heighten+the+crisis

Please help me out here. They are very sectarian and will bite at anyone who dares to deviate even slightly from their theoretical line. The dominance of their theoretical line will be detrimental for the local movement here. Please provide me with some evidence against their claims. Concrete data (e.g. – calculation of value transfer from Africa to China etc) is always welcome.

  • archive_botOPB
    0·
    3 years ago

    u/Slip_Inner - originally from r/GenZhou
    Comment 1/3

    Uyghur allegation: There are over 2 million Uyghurs jailed in concentration camps in the name of re-education, but they are secretly being raped, tortured, sterilized, and murdered.

    General Logical Rebuttal:

    There is no incentive to do so, there is no historical precedence that suggests so, and so far there is no proof of so.

    There are 10 million Uyghurs in the entirety of China, taking away 4 million for the population for seniors and children (based on the average working demographic of the world). If a third of the working population are in camps, Xinjiang’s economy would collapse. You would disproportionately see seniors and children on the street instead of adults. A significant number of shops would close down because there are no primary customers to buy things and primary shop owners to sell things. None of this has happened.

    On The Number “2 million”:

    You have probably seen the satellite image of alleged camps that holds these 2 million detainees. Take one of the most packed areas in the world, New York Manhattan. This place regularly holds 1.6 million people and is an undoubtedly tightly packed place. As there are no skyscrapers in these satellite images, the area of occupation for the 2 million Uighur camps should take up another half of an extra Manhattan. Where are the satellite images of city-sized camps around Xinjiang?

    If this does not give you an idea of how ridiculous the number 2 million is, the total population of US inmates is 2.3 million. There are 1,719 state prisons, 102 federal prisons, 942 juvenile correctional facilities, 3,283 local jails, and 79 Indian Country jails as well as military prisons, immigration detention facilities, civil commitment centers, and prisons. The US prisons are also known to be constantly operating at maximum capacity. There should be over 6 thousand different sized facilities in the province of Xinjiang, not just a couple of tens of small elementary school-sized structures.

    Adrian Zenz’s study is a bit more complicated to debunk because there is an actual “study” to look at. After taking some time to look at the actual study and doing some research on Adrian Zenz, one can quickly find out that he does not have a history in conducting academically approved papers. He has not received education in statistics related subjects and he has a long track record of making some very “questionable” claims. He claimed that he is “sent by God to punish Beijing,” and actively connects homosexuality, gender equality, and bans on corporal punishment to the power of “Antichrist.” His Wikipedia page has since removed any content regarding his “unconventional” beliefs but archives can still be found on the internet.

    Regarding the actual study, there is actually nothing much of substance. Most of the paragraphs are dedicated to providing information on the geological and geographical information on Xinjiang. The conclusion of “millions of detainees” is made by interviewing merely 8 alleged former detainees. There is no further useful information in Zenz’s study on this topic. It is fair to conclude, with a relationship to his fundamentalist Christian views and track record of questionable beliefs by today’s standard, that Adrian Zenz’s study is ultimately unfit to be cited by any article.

    If you don’t believe my personal account, here is an article that includes a more detailed explanation:

    https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/

    The “Evidence” of Vocational Training School’s Human Rights Violation:

    Drone Footage of blindfolded men shackled and shaven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU_w5UzdZEs

    The mentioning of this specific drone footage usually comes with allegations regarding the nature of the content. Most would claim that this is a transfer of Uyghur detainees to the concentration camps. However, a mere close up inspection of the back of vests of these alleged detainees shows that these people belong to the 喀什市看守所, Kashgar Remand Prison. This means that these are inmates, prisoners, literal criminals that are now being portrayed as innocent victims to suit the commentator’s political agenda. Using this footage to argue that the concentration camp exists is ill-intentioned and aims to exploit viewers who can not read Simplified Chinese.