• sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    15
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    1 year ago

    Was literally discussing this last night. China built a whole high speed rail network across its country for £300 billion and we’re £100 billion in and don’t even have a single train available. It’s actually insane.

    • Big_Twerp@feddit.uk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      The land cost alone for hs2 runs into the billions, it’s just very expensive to do.

      • sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        1 year ago

        Do you believe the land costs in France, Spain, Germany, China and Japan weren’t expensive?

        • Maestro@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          10
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          China is not. The CCP can just seize the land and force you to accept a pittance in compensation.

          • sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            1 year ago

            I genuinely can’t continue this conversation in good conscience given the fact that I don’t have sources. I can only go off of some YouTube documentaries I watched once upon a time where the government made a valuation on some land, sent in some archeologists and rehoused residents taking them rural living conditions with an outhouse to newer houses with toilets. In each case I saw the government deemed the projects more valuable than the people’s land/houses and time has proven them right as they have high speed rail and economic growth in all areas the rail network extends to and beyond.

        • Big_Twerp@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          You only mentioned china, where they don’t report on land costs because all land is state owned but yes I do believe land compensation is much less in china, not least because HS2 land compensation is significantly above market rate. Also; an authoritarian regime with only superficial regard for the health and well-being of their workers, that are paid almost nothing is certain to be cheaper. Suggesting otherwise is banal.

          Edit to add Troll alert.

    • tinned_tomatoes@feddit.uk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      13
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      1 year ago

      That’s not really comparable. China bulldozes through land with little regard for the societal or environmental impact. The UK is a place of natural beauty and has laws against doing that. It’s right that we have proper surveys and planning permissions needed for this sort of thing, in my opinion!

      • AlpacaChariot@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        Not sure why people are downvoting you, you’re right. Checks and balances cost money, and in broad terms we’re right to have those checks and balances. Maybe we need to reduce the burden slightly but our approach isn’t totally wrong.

      • mackwinston@feddit.uk
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        Even the chaotic Spanish have managed to build a decent high speed rail network. While they don’t have the population density of the south east of England, they seem to be much more organised. Perhaps it’s really Britain that’s chaotic, certainly when it comes to infrastructure projects that aren’t for cars?

        • Hyperreality@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Spain is basically empty outside of the larger cities, and property prices are often very low, so it is different.

          The Netherlands is perhaps a better example. Very high population density, technical challenges due to a lot of reclaimed land, high property prices.

          If they can manage it…

              • BrokebackHampton@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                I can find a house without renovating for under 10k in bumfuck England too, does that make property in the UK cheap?

                Instead of saying “Valencia or Murcia” why don’t you go have a look where people there actually want to live, especially all the British “expats”, like say, Benidorm? How’s finding something bigger than a matchbox for under 10k there going for ya?

                • Hyperreality@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Instead of saying “Valencia or Murcia”

                  Erm… Valencia is the third largest city in Spain.

                  Here’s a perfectly nice flat in the centre of Madrid, no renovation required, less than 100k, near a metro station, 15 minutes to the centre of Madrid:

                  https://www.idealista.com/inmueble/97370404/

                  I look forward to you finding me a similar flat in the middle of London.

                  why don’t you go have a look where people there actually want to live, especially all the British “expats”, like say, Benidorm?

                  Because most Spanish people don’t live in a small tourist trap, and don’t want to live in a small tourist trap, just because it happens to be popular with foreigners.

                  Also, when building a rail network, it’s unlikely that you’ll have to build most of it in fucking Benidorm. LOL

        • Arghhh@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Not defending anyone’s position, but even Italy managed to build one. I think costs were around 30+ billions.

      • sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        I don’t even know what to say to this. You have inherent biases and that’s fair, but you should try and address them internally rather than just posting them. To suggest that China doesn’t do proper surveys and just bulldozes through land without regard for societal or environmental impact sounds racist AF.

        France has 3000 kilometres of high speed rail compared to our 100.

        • Big_Twerp@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          I’ve worked as a civil engineering consultant in china, comparing how the deliver a major rail project to here in the uk is frankly moronic. It isn’t bias, it’s fact

          • sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            1 year ago

            Well considering they’ve actually delivered their rail projects 🤷🏾‍♂️

  • Treczoks@feddit.uk
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    9
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    1 year ago

    Let’s put it this way: Any HS2 that is not connected to the HS1 is a stupid idea from the beginning.

    Do you really imagine people coming from the EU wanting to drag all their stuff through the f-ing Tube to reach the connecting bullet train to the north? Heck, this is already a pain in the ass with the crappy normal trains in the UK. I once needed to go from Hastings to Cambridge by train, and vividly remember having to walk between Kings Cross and Kings Cross Themselink (and back) with a load of luggage and a handicapped wife.

    • mondoman712@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      1 year ago

      The HS1-HS2 link would’ve been great, had HS1 been built to terminate at the underground King’s Cross station that never ended up being built. As is it is, it doesn’t really go together nicely. But also the bigger problem is with the immigration and security theatre required to go through the tunnel, meaning you either have to change trains or have all of that at every other station that the trains would call at in the UK, which isn’t really feasible. If we could reduce (or remove) these requirements that would be great but we’ve been moving in the opposite direction.

      That said, the main point of HS2 is to move the existing long distance services (which don’t mesh well with slower trains, reducing capacity) off of our existing mainlines, creating a lot of capacity for more local and freight services across the country.

      • Treczoks@feddit.uk
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        that would be great but we’ve been moving in the opposite direction.

        Well, maybe the UK will return to civilisation before HS2 is finished…

    • Hyperreality@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Wheelchair = luggage trolley.

      The looks I’d get trolleying around my dear mum in her chair, absolutely laden with luggage or bags. I can only assume people thought I was some kind of monster doing that to an elderly lady, when in actual fact she was the one who would buy too much or insist on carrying it all.

      Not that this would have helped in your case. IME trains are not wheelchair accessible. In theory they are, but when you turn up on the day, the lift’s not working or you need to take 5 sets of stairs to get a connection, so that you end up having to take another train to a different station in the hope of their lift actually working, to take a cab to the station you were just at. Never again, basically.

  • Christian Kent@urbanists.social
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    1 year ago

    @Noit Funny how we never see the same reports for motorways — that do exactly the same thing!

    All sorts of standards are being applied to HS2 that don’t get applied to a road that length, from cost per mile, to blowouts, to land acquisition, to animal habitat, to community consultation … and just general media scrutiny.

    • Noit@lemm.eeOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      11
      ·
      1 year ago

      Britain struggles to achieve any project of scale. Just look at our lack of success in building nuclear power stations.

    • ramble81@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      If you think that’s bad, wait till you hear about the US… Only one small part that hits 150mph (240km/h) on a 50mi (80km) section. For a country that’s got more land area that Europe…

    • vext01@lemmy.sdf.org
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      We have one high speed rail link already, HS1. It goes from London to the channel tunnel.

      This article is about HS2, that would go north.

    • Noit@lemm.eeOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      Yes. Basically saying more money or less scope, pick one.