Hi comrades! This is my first time on Lemmygrad, so I apologise for the abrupt introduction. I saw there’s an introduction community, although it seems abandoned. I’ll consider making a post later today perhaps in this community, if you have better ideas for where it should fit, please let me know!
How do you deal personally with expressing affection towards family, lovers etc.? Capitalism has definitely commodified affection/love/relationships in every aspect (e.g. Valentine’s day), so it’s hard to not fall in for “consumerist love”. Obviously, a type of affection and compassion I’d argue are integral for the wellbeing of any society, although invidiualism as we know hardly promotes this.
The culture also creates expectations of how affection and any type of relationship should be “performed”. Corporations such as Disney which have a near monopoly on all expressions of late-capitalist culture often set stereotypes through the media they present to us, a good example being the Aladdin animated movie which is very racist, or Tarzan which was not popular until Disney animated it and made a friendlier version of its story. Thus this gives birth to lots of unrealistic expectations and pressures, because we feel we have to “perform” to our friends, family and lovers like we’re on a stage. This ties in and is reflected in the usage of social media, we can see unrealistic body expectations, although mostly in the cishet space as far as I know, please correct me if I’m wrong. I think it’s a combination of factors, first off the culture sets everyone up regarding expectations then they’re exacerbated on mainstream social media such as Instagram.
Now regarding a more personal aspect, I find that I have a hard time showing affection, even to family. Some people naturally express their emotions well, while I find myself not even going for hugs, and so on. I mostly internally justify it as “oh the other person would think it’s awkward,” perhaps it’s a lack of communication on my side. More often than not, this resulted in people thinking that I’m uninterested in them (as in friendship or a relationship), or even in an extreme case someone thought I hated them which was definitely not the case. I’m more of an introvert, although when I get to know the person better I become rather extroverted with them, so I think I’m ambiverted. I want to learn to express my emotions better through creating mostly, although I have yet to find a good creative process to suit me other than writing, which I enjoy. I think social anxiety plays a role in this, also the fact that I overthink most social encounters and exaggerate to myself how the other person understands my actions.
I’d love to hear your experiences and opinions regarding the subject!
Welcome comrade! 🙏 I hope you find this space as enjoyable as I do!
I have a lot of thoughts about what you wrote and I apologize for the brevity of my response - I work in 15 minutes lol. I know what it’s like to constantly perform. It feels like social interaction is a minefield or a strategic battle to be won sometimes.
Trying as it were has been… interesting, when the words that come out of my mouth I know are indicative of a kind, caring man, but the primary thought I feel bouncing around my head at most times is nothing but a prolonged, unhinged scream engulfed in a cascade of thoughts and subconscious voices that I can hardly begin to understand. But I’m trying.
And trying makes me feel manipulative. Aren’t all relationships inherently… transactional to some extent? There are things I want. There are things the Other wants. Friendship, romance, time together, benign things even. But are we not always manipulating each other to some extent to achieve these things? I present myself a certain way because I believe it’s ethical and I find solace in being kind - but we all are still presenting ourselves, facades that can’t possibly be completely penetrated by another. Parts of ourselves we do not want others to see or know.
It’s hard, comrade. I’m with ya.
Welcome comrade! 🙏 I hope you find this space as enjoyable as I do!
Thank you!
I have a lot of thoughts about what you wrote and I apologize for the brevity of my response - I work in 15 minutes lol. I know what it’s like to constantly perform. It feels like social interaction is a minefield or a strategic battle to be won sometimes.
No need to apologize. Yeah, sometimes it’s bothersome.
Trying as it were has been… interesting, when the words that come out of my mouth I know are indicative of a kind, caring man, but the primary thought I feel bouncing around my head at most times is nothing but a prolonged, unhinged scream engulfed in a cascade of thoughts and subconscious voices that I can hardly begin to understand. But I’m trying.
And trying makes me feel manipulative. Aren’t all relationships inherently… transactional to some extent? There are things I want. There are things the Other wants. Friendship, romance, time together, benign things even. But are we not always manipulating each other to some extent to achieve these things? I present myself a certain way because I believe it’s ethical and I find solace in being kind - but we all are still presenting ourselves, facades that can’t possibly be completely penetrated by another. Parts of ourselves we do not want others to see or know.
I suppose the transactional factor is there to a degree. I think we must cooperate and talk in the first place to agree with our wants and needs from each other in order to have a functional relationship of any kind. I always used “manipulating” with a negative connotation, to usually mean making someone do something to your own advantage that usually is detrimental to their wellbeing. In order to function in larger societal structures we do coerce each other into doing certain behaviors, although I wouldn’t say it all boils down to “we manipulate each other for X interest” as this would rule out actual meaningful connections.
Regarding your second point, yes we all have our different “faces” we present in different social situations, though I think we present a facade that’s closer to our core values and less a facade the more we gain trust in that person.
We all try in a way to feel accepted in the outside world, greater community, or what you want to call it.
It’s hard, comrade. I’m with ya.
Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it! If you ever want to talk to someone you’re always welcome to send me a message.
Wonderful response comrade, I will keep your ideas in mind on my own path to growth, thank you 😊
I have had “manipulative” stamped on my conscience by more than a couple of people (who were, in fact, abusing or using me in some way or another - though I was certainly not good to them, either). Every social situation now seems to require evaluation afterwards - was this thing I said that I felt so genuinely actually just a manipulative tactic to get this person to like me?
It can spiral hard from there, to the point where I start believing I am an innately bad person - disregarding the inherent truth that there exists no pure and evil, good guys and bad guys, I can convince myself that I’m the exception. :)
I’m convincing myself that I am usually acting on my genuine thoughts and feelings, not strategizing on ways to manipulate people. Slowly but surely anyway! Backatcha on the inbox, always open to you and any comrade who wants to talk.
Yeah I get this, some doubts can appear about our own actions. I go with the idea that you acted as best you could’ve in that specific case within those circumstances, most of the time at least. If you don’t consciously think every action regarding that person, I say it doesn’t count as manipulation, even if you were more mean with them. Seems to me just labeling because they didn’t get along with you anymore, although I don’t fully know your case.
Welcome to Lemmygrad!
I’ll have a think about your question, but I have some initial thoughts. It’s a good topic, as human relationships are important in general and for Marxists.
Without giving the kind of detail that would dox yourself, are you in the imperial core or? Depending on where you are, it may be unhelpful to rely on my advice if you’re in a different part of the world.
I’ll talk about friendship first. I remember reading a report a long time ago that suggested Anglo societies are very hands off, whereas Mainland Europe is rather hands on and Latin America even more so. IIRC people in Anglo societies touched, maybe ten times an hour, whereas Argentinians touched almost 200 times an hour, work Mediterranean Europeans somewhere in the middle.
Personally, I observe, then do what the group does – if I want to be part of the group, of course. Do they shake hands or bump fists? Hug? Put arms around shoulders? Touch the other’s hand when making a directed comment? Kiss – on the head/forehead/cheek/lips? Are the rules different when sober/drunk?
It’s all a performance, as you say, but society is all performance anyway and I’m unsure if that would’ve been different before capitalism or whether it will change afterwards. This can be very difficult for autistic people, for whom ‘performing’ becomes ‘masking’. So far as I understand, that means hiding one’s autism, which can be dangerous. I’m unsure if masking is connected with other types of neurodiversity. That could be something to look into.
A question for you (I don’t necessarily want an answer as this is a public space and you don’t want to be giving out too much personal information to me, a stranger): is it ‘just’ social anxiety or could it be anxiety from undiagnosed autism?
If it’s ‘just’ social anxiety, I have two points. First, people worth the time to be called friends shouldn’t care if you act differently due to social anxiety. So if they’re ordinarily very huggy, they shouldn’t expect that of you if it’s too much (this one applies to autism, too).
Second, if you get more extroverted with people you know, is there room for you to participate in the performance with/for those people? Is it the principle that makes you reluctant (you ‘shouldn’t have to perform’) or your social anxiety? If it’s the former, let’s unpick the reasons for the principle. If it’s the latter, then the first point, above, applies.
As for people misinterpreting your body language, etc… I’m afraid that’s just being human and it’ll happen whatever you do. Just have to muddle on. One solution could be being more open (not always, though).
Do you tell people about your social anxiety IRL? I know it can be a difficult thing to share. Depending on your answer, I can say more on this topic.
As for romantic relationships, I agree that the commodity aspect of things is unfortunate. At the same time, I don’t see the point in fighting it, although I’ll participate in a way that fits with my values.
I wouldn’t pay more for a meal just because it’s Valentine’s Day, but why not do something romantic? It’s as good an excuse as any to go for a nice walk if the weather’s okay, and who doesn’t appreciate a homemade meal? It could be as simple as making some sandwiches, opening some chips, and setting out the food on a rug indoors if it’s too cold for an outdoor picnic. I think most people are a lot less interested in the commodity aspect of things like this then the gesture.
Maybe a similar question as the one above can be asked, here: is it the principle that makes you reluctant (you ‘shouldn’t have to do something just because capitalism has created a particular event’) or something else?
Welcome to Lemmygrad!
Thank you!
Without giving the kind of detail that would dox yourself, are you in the imperial core or? Depending on where you are, it may be unhelpful to rely on my advice if you’re in a different part of the world.
In the imperial core, or close to it at least.
I’ll talk about friendship first. I remember reading a report a long time ago that suggested Anglo societies are very hands off, whereas Mainland Europe is rather hands on and Latin America even more so. IIRC people in Anglo societies touched, maybe ten times an hour, whereas Argentinians touched almost 200 times an hour, work Mediterranean Europeans somewhere in the middle.
Yeah, I definitely observed that Western societies are hands off as you mentioned. I think it got culturally exported to their neocolonies to a degree too. Might be a symptom of late-stage capitalism where humans cannot make deep connections anymore, although I’m not sure.
Personally, I observe, then do what the group does – if I want to be part of the group, of course. Do they shake hands or bump fists? Hug? Put arms around shoulders? Touch the other’s hand when making a directed comment? Kiss – on the head/forehead/cheek/lips? Are the rules different when sober/drunk?
Well I’m personally the observer kind of person so I fully understand what you mean. It’s harder to apply in a 1-to-1 case, though. For example, one might dislike being touched, in this case, in X group, but in private they like hugging or shaking hands or etc. I dislike being the “initiator” in something because in a way it always feels forced.
It’s all a performance, as you say, but society is all performance anyway and I’m unsure if that would’ve been different before capitalism or whether it will change afterwards. This can be very difficult for autistic people, for whom ‘performing’ becomes ‘masking’. So far as I understand, that means hiding one’s autism, which can be dangerous. I’m unsure if masking is connected with other types of neurodiversity. That could be something to look into.
I suppose we would all perform to a degree even in a classless society, though it wouldn’t be so promoted through the sheer hipocrisy of our “values”.
A question for you (I don’t necessarily want an answer as this is a public space and you don’t want to be giving out too much personal information to me, a stranger): is it ‘just’ social anxiety or could it be anxiety from undiagnosed autism?
I’m not sure.
If it’s ‘just’ social anxiety, I have two points. First, people worth the time to be called friends shouldn’t care if you act differently due to social anxiety. So if they’re ordinarily very huggy, they shouldn’t expect that of you if it’s too much (this one applies to autism, too).
True.
Second, if you get more extroverted with people you know, is there room for you to participate in the performance with/for those people? Is it the principle that makes you reluctant (you ‘shouldn’t have to perform’) or your social anxiety? If it’s the former, let’s unpick the reasons for the principle. If it’s the latter, then the first point, above, applies.
Well to be frank I’ve always held the “don’t be a hypocrite” principle close to heart. Although I can play an act well if I want to, but I’d rather not to, because I think honesty is rather important, although I’m going on pure moralism here. But to answer your question, I think it’s more of the latter where I just become more comfortable and don’t see any push back from the other person because of my actions, rejection in a way, I think?
As for people misinterpreting your body language, etc… I’m afraid that’s just being human and it’ll happen whatever you do. Just have to muddle on. One solution could be being more open (not always, though).
Ah well I’m more of an open person, but I always think sometimes being open comes as being “pushy”, if that makes any sense?
Do you tell people about your social anxiety IRL? I know it can be a difficult thing to share. Depending on your answer, I can say more on this topic.
As for romantic relationships, I agree that the commodity aspect of things is unfortunate. At the same time, I don’t see the point in fighting it, although I’ll participate in a way that fits with my values.
I think a kind of “counterculture” in this regard could be created.
I wouldn’t pay more for a meal just because it’s Valentine’s Day, but why not do something romantic? It’s as good an excuse as any to go for a nice walk if the weather’s okay, and who doesn’t appreciate a homemade meal? It could be as simple as making some sandwiches, opening some chips, and setting out the food on a rug indoors if it’s too cold for an outdoor picnic. I think most people are a lot less interested in the commodity aspect of things like this then the gesture.
Mostly agree.
Maybe a similar question as the one above can be asked, here: is it the principle that makes you reluctant (you ‘shouldn’t have to do something just because capitalism has created a particular event’) or something else?
In the aforementioned case I dislike the consumerist aspect of it. But it might be just “general reluctance” if I can call it that.
Thank you for this reply!
I wish I could help you, but I’m kind of dead inside. I’ll bump your thread, though, so more people will see your post.
I appreciate it!
Shalom i venidos buenos a Lemmygrad havér.😊
(Hello and Welcome to Lemmygrad Comrade)
Hi! Thank you!
spoiler
Now regarding a more personal aspect, I find that I have a hard time showing affection, even to family. Some people naturally express their emotions well, while I find myself not even going for hugs, and so on. I mostly internally justify it as “oh the other person would think it’s awkward,” perhaps it’s a lack of communication on my side. More often than not, this resulted in people thinking that I’m uninterested in them (as in friendship or a relationship), or even in an extreme case someone thought I hated them which was definitely not the case. I’m more of an introvert, although when I get to know the person better I become rather extroverted with them, so I think I’m ambiverted. I want to learn to express my emotions better through creating mostly, although I have yet to find a good creative process to suit me other than writing, which I enjoy. I think social anxiety plays a role in this, also the fact that I overthink most social encounters and exaggerate to myself how the other person understands my actions.
(Spoiled to save space) I relate to much of that. As someone in an Anglo society I have grown to find awkward physical touch with most people, especially family, but with those I would like to hug and such I fear initiation as not to be imposing or awkward. This extends to reaching out to hang out with people and so on. I also perceive that it seems not worth my time to be talking about things that don’t matter with people instead of reading or listening to something alone. However, I find that I desire to have more close connections with more people. I find that when I do talk or listen to people I do feel somewhat better overall, but it still feels like I’m looking for some more progress, which seems difficult to achieve. As a way to improve apon discussions by others that seem pointless or based on spectacle (the guy dubord type) I like to try to insert socialist/anti-colonialist/anti-imperialist talking points, and it feels good when I do, but before I do I get very anxious about mixing up words or them not liking it or no rational reason, and I often can’t find the moment to do so, because when a few people are talking and I’m hardly part of the conversation it feels weird to “butt in.”
I could, go on, but I don’t really have a point I’m getting to other than I relate, and I guess you have to try, because there seems to be some intrinsic value in social interaction, even if it’s weird.
I have grown to find awkward physical touch with most people, especially family, but with those I would like to hug and such I fear initiation as not to be imposing or awkward. This extends to reaching out to hang out with people and so on.
Yeah, many of the times I decide to not engage because I’m content with the current level of a relationship and I don’t want to “ruin” it in some cases.
I also perceive that it seems not worth my time to be talking about things that don’t matter with people instead of reading or listening to something alone. However, I find that I desire to have more close connections with more people.
Ah well I face this contradiction too, I mostly try to find a balance. Also journaling helps, kinda.
I find that when I do talk or listen to people I do feel somewhat better overall, but it still feels like I’m looking for some more progress, which seems difficult to achieve. As a way to improve apon discussions by others that seem pointless or based on spectacle (the guy dubord type) I like to try to insert socialist/anti-colonialist/anti-imperialist talking points, and it feels good when I do, but before I do I get very anxious about mixing up words or them not liking it or no rational reason, and I often can’t find the moment to do so, because when a few people are talking and I’m hardly part of the conversation it feels weird to “butt in.”
If the moment is right I always show my viewpoint, although depending on the situation not mentioning it’s necessarily ML. Most times, if I’m talking about a subject such a historical matter or political, I try to question them until they arrive at a closer ML view. Most of the time it works because they don’t get overly defensive, though obviously it depends on the person.
Also journaling helps, kinda.
I’ve started journaling, though it’s kind of hard to keep it up.
If the moment is right I always show my viewpoint, although depending on the situation not mentioning it’s necessarily ML. Most times, if I’m talking about a subject such a historical matter or political, I try to question them until they arrive at a closer ML view. Most of the time it works because they don’t get overly defensive, though obviously it depends on the person.
Of course. It’s not like I say something like “As a Marxist-Leninist this is what I think.” Though most people know I’m some kinda commie, whenever I try to add radical stuff to conversations I usually just present it as something I read somewhere, or sometimes as something coming from my interpretation of a perspective that’s not certainly my own.
I’ve started journaling, though it’s kind of hard to keep it up.
I found that if I journal on paper I can be more consistent, although that would vary depending on your situation, if you can do it without someone snooping etc.
I usually just present it as something I read somewhere, or sometimes as something coming from my interpretation of a perspective that’s not certainly my own.
That’s clever, works too
Velkommen til Lemmygrad kammerat!
Tak! Thank you!
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