Like, so genders are social construct and different from biological “sex”, but identifying as a different “gender” requires surgery to change your “sex”? Is “gender” just personality? I’m so confused

Edit: also, the idea trans-affirming surgery and hormones is also absolutely horrifying to me for some reason; just, ouch

  • lemmygrabber
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    91 year ago

    Remove the image or put it behind a content warning using a spoiler tag.

  • Camarada ForteMA
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    341 year ago

    Gender expressions not associated with genitalia have existed since the beginning of history. One concrete example is the Sumerian gala priests which had a penis but were not associated with males, and were considered either “genderless” or feminine. West African societies had up to 5 different gender expressions, and the same can be said for some Native peoples of North America.

    Gender expression is a social-historical construct and what is perceived as being associated with one gender changes over time. In some epochs, women were expected to be talkative, in others, to be silent and subservient, the same for men in different epochs. Gender may have biological predispositions, but it’s largely determined by historical conditions.

    For some time, gender was socially associated with genitalia, an assumption which overlooked manifestations of transgender behavior in every period, such as transvestites, and instead were severely repressed them throughout Western history to conform to behavior expected of the gender assigned to them at birth. Heliogabalus, a Roman emperor was a transvestite, regularly used makeup and wigs and preferred to be called a lady. There wasn’t a term for trans people in the Roman empire, but it doesn’t mean there weren’t already trans people at that time.

    Trans people existed throughout history, and it’s a social phenomenon which only had prominence in Western countries in the modern era after the struggles of LGBT people to be recognized, beginning in the late 60’s

    • @KommandoGZD
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      111 year ago

      Gender may have biological predispositions, but it’s largely determined by historical conditions.

      Not sure if this belongs here, but since a lot of people tend to say trans people are some kind of ‘disproval’ or breaking up of predominant gender-expression/-norms. But isn’t trans then much more a reaffirmation of whatever dominant historical gender-expression/-definition?

      • Camarada ForteMA
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        121 year ago

        But isn’t trans then much more a reaffirmation of whatever dominant historical gender-expression/-definition?

        If they were really a reaffirmation of traditional gender expression, then why would they be so attacked by the most conservative and reactionary sectors of bourgeois society?

        Trans people will exist irrespective of what we argue here. It’s not a reaffirmation, but it’s certainly a reflection of the historical gender expression. Trans people are in fact a subversion of the dominant historical gender-expression by making it more apparent that gender is not a biological thing. What is perceived as feminine is much of a fiction as being trans, because what makes a child have interest for pink colors, a baby doll, a kitchen set and make up at childhood is much more related to bourgeois ideology and production than an inherent biological predisposition. The dominant bourgeois historical understanding of gender was that women were those who were born with a uterus, and man with a penis. But neither biology is that simple, much less social life. Trans people through their mere existence frees gender from its arbitrary (pseudo)biological prison.

        This doesn’t prevent gender from being reproduced historically through the family institution. Because of the traditional family, people born with an uterus are raised as women precisely because of their genitalia. This is how womanhood reproduces itself. They will be given baby dolls to take care of, they will be given a kitchen set to role-play with, they will be closer to their mothers doing housework with them. This is the traditional gender norms, which still survives in the family. The struggles of trans people have pushed society to re-evaluate traditional gender norms and what is expected of people based on their gender. This newer generation will be more and more open to share housework, to share work raising children, because that will be no longer something expected solely of a particular gender of people.

    • 陈卫华是我的英雄OP
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      01 year ago

      Wow, thanks! But also: what’s the deal with “gender-affirming” surgeries? Is it some mechanism for people to feel more physically like their “gender-personalities”? Would gender exist under socialism? Should minors be able to get gender-affirming therapy?

      • Water Bowl Slime
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        171 year ago

        Those surgeries are done to make people feel like their bodies match who they are. For the record, not all trans people want surgery and not all surgery involves genitals.

        Considering gender has always existed, I can’t imagine that it would go away under socialism. I’m not sure what that would even mean.

        And yes, minors should be able to get therapy. They should be able to get surgeries, even. Keep in mind that most things that trans minors want are already available to cis minors, such as breast reductions and implants.

        • Arsen6331 ☭
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          151 year ago

          It is also important to consider the fact that delaying treatment may lead to irreversible changes, so ideally, it would happen as early as possible for best results, although it is effective at any age.

          • Water Bowl Slime
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            131 year ago

            Yeah and there’s also the fact that many of the drugs used for hormone therapy are readily available to cis teens. Like how puberty blockers are given to kids that got puberty early, but aren’t nearly as accessible to kids that want them because they’re trans.

  • @MILFCortana
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    221 year ago

    Sex is xx xy and lots of intersex conditions including XX males and Xy women. Gender is an artificial construct and traditionally a division of labor. Most cultures before Christians and the West had LGBT in some way prior, although it wasn’t called LGBT, and ofc they had their own gender roles, which sometimes included 5+ genders

    Afaik most trans people don’t have surgery, because it’s too expensive, not very good, or undesired.

    • @CommunistWolf
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      221 year ago

      People who talk about “biological sex” often forget two very important things:

      • Biology is descriptive, not prescriptive
      • Biologists have lots of different descriptions of sex. We can talk about genotype vs phenotype, for a start; they can be pretty independent of each other, and in contexts where it matters, a biologist (as opposed to some internet carper) will specify.

      A common tactic of “gender critical” types is to say “biological sex is immutable”, meaning genotype, while actually caring about phenotype (“does this person have a penis?” - which is eminently mutable). Fun times.

      • Water Bowl Slime
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        151 year ago

        Yeah we’re so used to talking about sex as if it has a concrete definition but really, it’s a vague idea that encompasses a broad range of features. And once you start appreciating human diversity, these categories become more and more arbitrary.

  • @seanchai
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    1 year ago

    deleted by creator

    • 陈卫华是我的英雄OP
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      91 year ago

      Again, I’m not hostile, I just struggle to understand this stuff. The notion of gender science is somewhat culturally foreign to me.

    • 陈卫华是我的英雄OP
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      51 year ago

      But are children able to properly consent to these sort of things, even if it is of their own initiative?

      • @nour
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        141 year ago

        You may want to read this comment by comrade @afellowkid@lemmygrad.ml about what can be the options for a transgender teenager, I found it very informative: https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/249005

        TLDR, they’re not doing surgery on literal children for this, more common is apparently to hold off puberty and let them decide on further options when they’re older. (Disclaimer that I’m summarizing the comment, I’m too old to have any personal experience with this.)

        • 陈卫华是我的英雄OP
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          111 year ago

          Ah, I see. That’s actually pretty interesting. Would undergoing the opposite sex’s puberty make becoming transgender impossible? If you block puberty and become an adult, would you still be able to undergo it?

          • QueerCommie
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            51 year ago

            1 it wouldn’t make it impossible because you don’t need hrt to be trans and 2 people also undergo it as an adult after they have experienced the affects of the puberty of the sex assigned at birth

  • @CommunistWolf
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    201 year ago

    identifying as a different “gender” requires surgery to change your “sex”?

    No, in short. A minority of trans people undergo surgery. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314/ might help you with that a bit.

    Trans people vary; some trans people find having the “wrong” genitalia being part of their body a horrifying experience, and want them removing. Others want the “right” genitalia because without them, they struggle to perform (in the technical sense) the gender they identify with. Both of those feelings will lead people to attempt to change their bodies if they can; but they’re not a universal, essential, or all-encompassing part of trans experience.

  • @ComradeChairmanKGB
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    161 year ago

    “also, the idea trans-affirming surgery and hormones is also absolutely horrifying to me for some reason”

    So you’re saying that the idea of having your body changed to something you can’t identify with or recognize as your own horrified you? That’s fair enough.

    But stretch your empathy a little, bring that horror back to the forefront. Now imagine it dialed up to 11 and present in the background of your every waking moment. Think about what it might be like to look at your reflection and see a rotting meat prison that isn’t you. And you might have some concept of the horror into which trans people are born.

    Now granted everyone has a different experience and I’m sure for many it’s better or even worse. But I know personally, I do a fuck load of disassociation.

    Anyways, I hope you made your post in good faith. But going for shock value in your edit comes across pretty transphobic.

    • @Shrike502
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      101 year ago

      see a rotting meat prison that isn’t you

      You make it sound as if trans people are some kinda cyborgs.

      • @ComradeChairmanKGB
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        61 year ago

        “Now granted everyone has a different experience”

        I wasn’t really speaking for anyone else, and granted it was a little dramatically embellished. But I stand by what I said. It really can feel like being a zombie sometimes.

      • @cfgaussian
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        51 year ago

        That particular phrase to me just sounds like it’s describing what aging feels like…

  • @cfgaussian
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    161 year ago

    I just wanted to say it’s good that you are asking questions in good faith, you are probably not the only one who, due to the cultural environment that they grew up, in is uninformed on this topic, and it’s good that the comrades here who are more knowledgeable on the subject are patiently taking the time to explain. This is how we learn and grow. Yet again i am positively surprised at how wholesome a community this is. You could not have a good faith educational conversations about this in most other places.

  • @frippa@lemmy.ml
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    131 year ago

    I just want to say how much wholesome this community is, we managed to explain peacefully (hey, I I learned too 😁) without resorting, from both parts, to useless flame. Love you all

  • ButtigiegMineralMap
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    101 year ago

    Someone pls correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe sex change operations are quite expensive (which really limits exploited people from getting their surgery that would help them a lot) and there are plenty of people that identify as transgender that don’t have the operation done. I AM confused about as to what would be considered transgender. Would someone with no surgery be considered transgender? I guess I mean is it a physical thing or is it mostly how you feel? Is it a combo of the two? I don’t mean this to be rude or anything, it comes from a place of wanting to understand better, thanks to any and all comrades that can help me out

    • @nemesis
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      141 year ago

      I AM confused about as to what would be considered transgender.

      All that is required to be trans is to not identify with your assigned gender at birth.

      Would someone with no surgery be considered transgender?

      Medical transition (which includes surgery, HRT, hair removal, voice training, etc) is not required to be trans as this would exclude people who want to medically transition but cannot due to regressive government policy, lack of health insurance/affordability issues, conflicting medical issues, etc. and people who do not want or need to medically transition to express their gender.

      • ButtigiegMineralMap
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        81 year ago

        That makes sense. Even as I was reading your comment I was thinking of it and thought “well if they didn’t have x or y or z surgery that they listed, I think they would still definitely be transitioning into their preferred gender”. I think the word “transitioning” was one of the biggest game changers for me that made me realize that it’s not completely a physical concept. Thanks for the answer, I’m excited to learn more about this topic, I see some good sources in these comments

  • relay
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    11 year ago

    deleted by creator