I guess the ones who haven’t done bad to any children gotta seek help
OK, people here are conflating pedophilia with actual child sex abuse. Pedophilia is a mental disorder where you are sexually attracted to children, child sex abuse is when you sexually victimize a child. Not all child sex abusers are pedophiles, not all pedophiles abuse children.
Look, I am in no way defending either, and sex offenders should absolutely be punished harshly, so why does this matter? Because, if you say “we should kill/gulag all pedophiles” as in, everyone with the mental disorder of being sexually attracted to children, you’re going to run into several problems. Namely, how do you reliably convict someone of a mental state? Thought crime can’t be enforced. This isn’t George Orwell’s world which I thought we all agreed is a horribly inaccurate strawman representation of socialism. If you try to do that, you both falsely convict a ton of innocent people, and will absolutely cause non-offending pedophiles to keep their disorder a secret, until it manifests as actual, physical sex abuse that can actually be convicted.
Instead, if you encouraged non-offending pedophiles to seek psychiatric help before the disorder manifests as action, they can get the treatment they need for that mental state, and you actually prevent sex crime from ever happening. It has been shown that pedophilia can be treated and go into remission just like any other mental disorder.
But I guess I’m just dumb and/or a “pedophilia enabler” in thinking preventing such a serious crime instead of reactionary punishment once it’s been committed and people irrevocably harmed, is worth doing and more conducive to protecting children.
What should really be considered is that there are child molesters who aren’t in fact with pedophilic disorder, and on the contrary people who haven’t done anything wrong because they struggle against their condition.
So in fact we should always swap “pedophile”, with “child molester” to be accurate and blame the right kind of people.
Exactly.
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This is just the way of the world right now. Pedo is this weird trigger word that causes people to go blind with rage and lose all sembelance of rational thought, and if you try to actually talk them down they just say you’re into kids yourself.
The issue of pedophilia is what I like to call a “thought stopper”. Instead of trying to address it in a way that, you know, actually addresses the issue, people just get “justice”/revenge boners. It’s in the same class as the West’s attitude toward China, Russia, etc, and it’s a pitfall that we who claim to be materialists must watch out for.
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I don’t see this kneejerk hot take reaction you’re talking about, and Fennekin sort of just assumed in their text that people would call them a pedophile enabler for taking the frankly rather acceptable stance they did.
I want to encourage you both to engage in good faith and assume the same from others here rather than begin assuming the worst out of people. The GZD discord is unbearable because everyone assumes bad faith from everyone else and thus everything is always horribly tense and un-comradely. It doesn’t have to be like that, and I would consider ‘reddit style’ behavior more congruent with assuming the worst out of people and twisting their words.
I think there is also a delicate balance of interplaying factors at work here - many of the people publicly calling for the death of “pedos” themselves were abused as children, they’re not monsters. Most of them probably equate the terms “pedophile” and “child molester” to mean the same thing, as another comrade pointed out. It’s an ignorant and potentially dangerous miscommunication that can deter pedophiles from getting help, but I think refusing to acknowledge the place that that anger comes from does a disservice to those who suffered the depravity of a child molester as well.
I don’t see this kneejerk hot take reaction you’re talking about
I’d assume she’s referring to the post title
Fennekin sort of just assumed in their text that people would call them a pedophile enabler for taking the frankly rather acceptable stance they did.
I made thus comment before I read all the other comments, and you’re right, and I now can see that I might have been better off not putting snark in such a serious topic. I guess I’m just used to reading this discussion on Reddit, where yeah, everyone’s like “if someone even looks at a child for longer than they need to they should be drawn and quartered” and god forbid you actually point out problems with this (yet ironically, Reddit seems to have no problem with l*licon and other fictional CP, why?!) Actually pleasently surprised that here it’s not the case and most people agree that non-offending pedophiles should be treated instead.
I apologize if my comment seemed snarky or accusative or anything. I think most of the convo here has been useful and balanced, and I think it usually is. Even when a comrade presents an extreme overexaggeration of their beliefs, it’s often made in a fit of anger or annoyance, and when actually talked to I think that the realities of their views tend to look a lot like mine/ours, or they’re just not educated enough on the topic and are receptive to discussion. Usually.
Just not like reddit at all, at least in my experience, excepting trolls. On reddit, any time I made a post I felt prickly, the armor has to go up beforehand because I know no matter what I say the comments will be flooded with bad faith actors. Usually doesn’t feel that way here and I appreciate that.
Would any of you rather these people get help or should they get destroyed?
Help. Being a pedophile does not mean you have done anything to a kid, and if you want to seek help for your problems, you should be able to. Just saying kill them all is an idiotic line of thought.
You’re absolutely right. However, something makes me suspect that for a whole lot of reddit, u/pornpostonalt included, “getting help” means lowering the age of consent and legalizing child pornography…
“getting help” means lowering the age of consent and legalizing child pornography…
Hetchoune yemmah
I agree with this statement. I think it’s a very complex issue made leagues worse due to the way sex is viewed in western and western influenced societies. It’s used in everything to get views, advertisements, etc. Capitalism preys upon the natural human drive to mate/reproduce and we have to realize living in a society where everything is hyper sexualized will fuck people up. There’s also a huge difference between people that are confused or just messed up from society that don’t act on whatever urges they may have and those that not only do but find pleasure out of it.
As far as actual offenders go I agree with people here that say there’s pretty much no going back from it. If they cross that line and found enjoyment out of it they will never want to stop. So I follow the path of help who you can but there are some that just cannot be.
Killing every single person that has pedophiliac thoughts would be monsterous. And of course I’m not defending pedophiles. Pedophiles who hurt children deserve a bullet or a needle in the arm.
Those who haven’t offended and are actively seeking help should be treated as human. I think executing someone over thoughts they have no control over is evil.
I agree, people who have those gross thoughts should seek help from a professional but people who actively seek or godforbid do worse to minors deserve everything that people threaten them with
It’s an uncomfortable question. Under socialism, I think non-offending pedophiles should be encouraged to discuss the issues they’re having with state-appointed counselors, and potentially interned in a (humane) facility where they can undergo evaluation and treatment - not the chemical castration, inherently psycho-pharmaceutical people think of, that should probably be a last resort. Talk therapy, DBT, etc. should be attempted first, always.
On the other hand, proven offending pedophiles should probably just be put to death. This may be the carceral-state, punishment-over-rehabilitation brainwashing talking, but I don’t think there’s any coming back from that and there probably shouldn’t be. Nigh any lens I apply to this issue comes to the same conclusion. Utilitarian? They obviously take more from the people than they give. Ethical? They inflict irreperable trauma on the most vulnerable population there is and are statistically likely to do so again.
I remember reading about a pedophile in an area controlled by Filipino communists. They asked his victim what she wanted to be done, and held a trial wherein her voice carried more weight than the rest of the people involved. They hanged the pedophile. Good.
(Note: I’m speaking as someone who endured CSA for 5 years. This is not to “lane” anyone, just context as to why I’ve personally thought about this.)
There was a case like this in the LNR back in 2014 or 2015. A soldier was convicted, by a people’s court, of raping a 12 year old girl. Since the LNR didn’t at the time have a truly functioning legal system, and couldn’t legitimately put anyone to death, the soldier was given a choice: either rot in prison for the duration of the conflict, to face sentencing during peacetime, or be sent under guard to the heaviest part of the front. He chose the latter, and I believe died in combat a couple weeks later.
Interesting. A solution like that makes sense in the midst of fighting a war against imperial aggressors. I’m not sure how it’d look during peacetime. I’d personally say that being in the socialist military, during peacetime, should be viewed as an honor rather than a punishment. I also understand that said socialist military can only exist through enduring a period of conflict. Sometimes more pragmatic approaches are needed, and it seems to me like they made the right call.
I’m curious, do you have a link to where you read that?
Honestly IIRC it was a comment on FB from a Filipino communist who allegedly fled after some shit went down. So not exactly a source I’d use without further investigation, but still interesting.
I’d prefer they get help but at the same time I don’t trust liberals not to try and foster an environment of total tolerance towards paedos, some of them are already trying to do this with arguments in favour of drawn CP, referring to paedos as “MAPs” or pushing the agenda of “children’s autonomy”. For that reason, I’m happy to maintain paedo-bashing until we have a proletarian state that won’t tolerate liberal bs
Some ITT have suggested the death penalty, I’m personally against the death penalty for any crime purely because the potential for error exists. If you wrongfully imprison someone, you can’t give them back the time they lost but you can compensate them to the point that they can really enjoy what time they have left whereas if you wrongfully kill someone, there’s no way to fix that at all. Even for criminals who cannot be reformed, I think the very least that can be done is to put them to work for the betterment of society and at least have the state use the lives of these people to contribute some good to society.
Depends:
If they still didn’t do anything to any child=mental asylum
They raped a child=destroyed, every single one of them
Agree completely, but Nitpick: don’t call it a mental asylum. Those are the lobotomy and electroshock fake hospitals that absolutely do not work nor are they based in any sort of real science or medicine. I assume you’re referring to modern psychiatric treatment for mental disorders, which should just be called that.
They should get the gulag comrade, contributing back to society.
As for non offending ones I think they can be rehabilitated by experts psychologists and psychiatrists
I got banned from there recently just for simply stating I’m an ML
Same, I just said “tankies are in your walls”
I see nothing wrong, only a sign of approval and basedness.
I might lose my lemmygrad license for taking this stance but Pedophilia is an extremely common mental illness, whether we want to acknowledge it or not. Child abusers should 100% be made to pay for their crimes, but pedos most often need mental help. Remember To Catch A Predator? I remember a lot of those guys being genuinely sick in the head instead of simply evil.
The issue will only continue to grow as long as men and women with pedophilia are being told that they should die or be mocked into suicide for revealing themselves as they try to get help.
Least suspicious r/196 user be like
What is 196 anyway?
i guy grew organically a (supposedly) healthy and fun comunity on reddit, eventually he became unable to moderate it and closed it, this and other /r are try to redo that orginal comunity
My stance on this will be the same as has been on reddit here. Isolate a potential pedophile from society if they have not committed any wrong. Death sentence without any exclusions, regardless of claimed mental state, to anyone who has committed it, regardless of gender.
I have one huge issue with how pedophiles are treated. If a female rapes a male child, it is treated as less severe for some mysterious reason, and this has happened with far too many female teachers. And for some mysterious reason, I never see this being voiced against, because the male must have surely had fun, and they are somehow immune to sexual and mental trauma because they have a penis. The worst part is that what I have mentioned here, does not seem to be documented as much, but once you start to wade through news stories of such incidents, this pattern is easy to observe. I do not like it. A pedophile that has committed the crime is not a human, they are below humans, regardless of gender. Victim is a victim, regardless of gender or sexuality.
Isolate a potential pedophile from society if they have not committed any wrong.
How do you plan on determining their mental state beyond a reasonable doubt? Otherwise you’ll be punishing a ton of innocent people. And your use of “potential” pedophile makes me think that you think sweeping a bunch of innocent people in is okay as long as you get all the pedophiles, and respectfully, no it’s not.
If you don’t have a way of reliably reading people’s minds, which you don’t, and you don’t want to falsely punish people, which you wouldn’t, then you can only be sure they’re a pedophile when they commit a sex crime. Instead of, you know, allowing them to get treatment so the sex crime is prevented in the first place.
What happened to “(re)education and prevention instead of punishment” in socialism? In the end it doesn’t matter to the victim if their abuser is executed or jailed forever (people seem to fixate on whether already convicted sex offenders should be sentenced to death or not when discussing this, instead of methods of prevention), because the damage is already done. Revenge doesn’t actually heal your own wounds, mental, physical, or otherwise. Instead, what would matter to the victim is if you can prevent someone from committing the abuse, so the damage is not done and they never get wounded in the first place.
Re-education is theoretically a greater solution, however the problem is West pop, kpop and Japanese shotacon/lolicon culture has already done the damage to society it needed to. Reversing is, let’s just say very hard.
Unless one wants the world to accept and live with this thing (and said proponents above that fuel it) forever, if one wants to prevent someone from committing this abuse, the only solution is to work your way through society in this manner, unless you want to keep fighting anyone left over. It is a form of cancer that spreads quickly. And art forms like these do not exactly have an easy solution. You really have to do it like DPRK, abolishment of South Korean art/media material distribution, for example. But that limits so called “freedom” and creates different kind of problems.
Society in many ways stands at a point beyond possible repair. Capitalist entertainment might have taken society to one of its final conclusions already, with AI photo art now being likely the penultimate step before 720p AI video becomes a tool available to masses.
So, having said all this, would you be okay with you or people you love who you know are not a pedophile, getting rounded up and imprisoned/killed because some “eliminate pedophilia no matter the human cost or collateral damage” task force for maybe, possibly having the slightest tendency to be sexually attracted to children?
Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for banning any and all media that even has the tiniest element of sexualizing children. Burn it all, no one needs that crap ever, and pieces of media aren’t living things that have rights…
BUT, from what I can gather, and please correct me if I’m wrong as I may be misunderstanding you here: you’re suggesting we start blanket banning people (i.e. “isolate from society”, which were your exact words), you know, those living things that we should really be upholding the rights of as socialists, on the suspicion they’re sexually attracted to children? Sorry, but hard disagree with that from a socialist/leftist perspective, and a sentiment like that bears a scary amount of resemblance to the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch Trials (it’s easy to be horrified at the cruelty those because the things they were trying to uphold was BS, but even if what you’re upholding is noble, like protecting children from sexual abuse, it still doesn’t give you a pass to throw an untold number of innocent people under the bus), or, you know, the Western BS such as how all Muslims are terrorists so we should be arresting all of them, or, maybe even more fitting, the way the Philippines has been dealing with drugs?
Also, the DPRK banning South Korean media and culture is not the same as “isolate potential pedophiles from society”, because, again, the things they’re trying to isolate and destroy are non-living things like media and ideas, not people. What you’re suggesting of “isolate potential pedophiles from society” is more akin to the Western propaganda talking point that the DPRK executes/sends to labour camps three generations of a family for one person committing a political crime because “they think the propensity to be traitors of the regime is passed down through the bloodline”, which, I thought we all agreed there was no hard evidence for.
Do I love specific people, or do I choose children? Is this the choice it comes down to? Is it a rational question? To what extent must people protect their individualist interests? To what extent do the rights of rest of society get trampled upon?
If upholding the rights of people allows to converge the argument with indirect protection of potential pedophiles who have not committed the crime physically, what would be the criteria to filter people? Unlimited surveillance of every internet user? Unlimited surveillance using cameras in society? Internet comments, or re/distribution of media in any form that contains Western singers dressed as lollipop candy sucking ponytail teenagers, or kpop material, or lolicon/shotacon material?
The goal of my comment was to question the silence on male child victims of pedophilia, and to stimulate this debate on how would one even go about solving such a problem, when society is already damaged by such kind of media nearly irreversibly. Barely anyone tries to mention the issue of corruption of consumed media and its perception by its consumers.
What DPRK is trying to do is not that surface level. They do understand what I feel about these things. Media and ideas are extension of people, and when people continue to consume such media and ideas so much, people end up becoming an extension of ideas and media.
I never suggested that it be some kind of three generations of concentration camps Western media brainfart, but I see no other effective way, considering how deep the effects of Western/SK pop and shotacon/lolicon cartoons are on people. The approach of public education might have been way easier to implement about 8-10 years ago, but unrestricted internet access of such content has created different conditions now. We are at a point in society, where people are using ChatGPT and AI art creation and to some extent even AI music creation. Moreover, the photos we click using our phones are so Instagram focused, most people have lost touch of how even photographs look like.
The problem with how you phrase this, keeping in perspective the so called human element, is that it disregards the developments that have happened in the past decade in regards with how far corruption of perspective of consumed media has happened. Detachment from reality may sound like objective analysis, but is irrelevant in a non utopian society. This is kind of why despite PSNR and SSIM existing to perform objective analysis of video quality measurements, we now use something called VMAF developed by Netflix.
As a counter argument, I submit to you the countless instances of the bourgeoisie and even ruling class being re-educated and turned into productive socialist workers post revolution, including, notably, a former Chinese emperor who ended up joining and being accepted into the CPC. Capitalism, fascism/nationalism, and imperialism are all ingrained into society far more than pedophilia, yet the actual revolutionaries that actually worked to destroy those sentiments did not kill blindly and recognized the human capacity for real change.
Pivoting slightly, the materialist question of how do you read one’s mind still stands. Media can be judged for whether they have an element of sexualizing children, how do you expand that to people? You say that constant surveillance of everyone’s activities “just to extend rights to potential pedophiles” is infeasible, and this whole thing hinges on the fact that that we’re in reality and not some utopia, yet you’re proposing some abstract way of determining whether someone might have a certain mental state? Based on what? We don’t even fully understand the psychology and neurology behind regular sexual attraction and arousal, let alone its disorders, and just like any other sexual attraction or fetish, many people who have the seed of them in their subconscious don’t even know it until when and if it manifests into the realm of the conscious, yet you have a way of picking out every potential pedophile? Unless you peg every single person as a pedophile by default until proven otherwise, I don’t see how this can be done, especially if you’ve already rejected constant surveillance of one’s actions, how do you plan on policing their thoughts? Yes we live in a non-utopian society that struggles with the existence of sexualization of children, but it’s the same non-utopian society where crystal balls and psychic brain scans do not exist.
Also, what’s the line for pedophilia here? Would a 18 year old being attracted to a 17 year old count? A 19 year old and a 16 year old? What about a 12 year old, right at the beginning of puberty where hormones are just going crazy and irrational thoughts galore, being attracted to a 10 year old? What about intrusive or transient thoughts that won’t ever be acted upon? What about an adult who watched and enjoyed a few middle school romance movies? There are cartoons, completely non sexual and aimed at children, produced by even socialist countries, where child characters develop romantic feelings for each other and even do things like kiss (it’s not like that doesn’t happen IRL all the time), should they be classed the same as lolicon and their adult creators and any adult viewers jailed for maybe being pedophiles because they might have liked those elements not for literary or plot purposes but maybe because they were sexually aroused? Squirrel and Hedgehog, produced by the DPRK, and tons of Chinese donghua and Soviet animations produced by their respective state media, come to mind. You said potential pedophile, how potential do you want to get exactly? Sorry if I sound facetious as that is not my intent, but you never mentioned what you consider “potential pedophile” so I’m trying to get a better idea of what you mean when you use that phrase.
Also, just wanted to be clear: I did not comment on what you said about female pedophiles and male victims because I agree with that sentiment. Didn’t want you think I was ignoring that aspect of your argument.
countless instances of the bourgeoisie and even ruling class being re-educated and turned into productive socialist workers post revolution
Class struggle is far and away from something like struggle of societal ills. The moral implications are not the same, and adults are less vulnerable than children.
Addressing further the “potential pedophile” issue, what we probably need is scientific research and analysis on pedophiles, lots of it. Neurological and physical analysis and the kind. Nobody will volunteer for this for obvious reasons, so those that get arrested regularly must be the subjects of research for this. There are a lot of common patterns among consumers of such works, that can be identified and worked on, and used as criteria to figure out people in society. This is far more filtered down than the mass blanket arrest approach you thought I was proposing. There was once a TED Talk proposing about pedophilia being considered not as mental illness but as a sexual orientation.
Cases that revolve around juvenile age are different than ones where the creepy uncle/aunty or adult commits against the underage female or male child, and have certain kind of framework around it already.
I do not think anyone considers underage kids involved with each other the same as uncle/aunty forcing themselves on a child. The former falls under juvenile category, and is a lot different. Middle school romance movies are not the same as child pornography in any way, shape or form. Kissing and hugging is grey area and generally ignored by society, and further acts are considered as alarming and pornographic.
A lot more can be done about this than you think, and one who knows their way around should not find it hard to classify these things and develop framework.
Again, all this hinges on future research that may or may not yield anything or might take an unknown amount of time, with a massive risk of tons of false positives once it’s put into force. Meanwhile we currently have treatments for pedophilia than can make it go into remission and render people no longer a threat to children. From a materialistic point of view, this does not check out.
Also, you’re planning on researching people arrested for sex crimes to understand all of pedophilia? This gets into all kinds of sample bias and the same issue as studying any actively manifesting disease to understand things about the disease pre manifestation. That has failed many times and is now a well-known pitfall in medical research. The data you collect could very well not help you in determining potential pedophiles at all, only pedophiles who are active sex offenders. That can definitely still be helpful in determining the extreme end of pedophilia, but I suspect that’s not good enough for you.
And what do you do after this? On everyone’s 18th birthday subject them to a mandatory extremely invasive psychoanalysis and jail them if they hit anything on your hypothetical framework?
Also also, TED is not a scientific journal or even a half reputable source of science, I would have thought all the anticommunist BS that comes out of that would have put socialists off trusting it. Also, if it is a sexual orientation, how will you prevent it from spontaneously cropping up even after you kill all the current potential pedophiles? There is a genetic component to sexual orientation, but also a huge epigenetic component in how the brain develops during pregnancy and childhood. Actually, this is the same for mental disorders too so whether it’s a disease or a sexual orientation doesn’t matter. If I understand it correctly, your solution hinges on a single massive purge and then we’ll be done with it forever? Not going to happen. Also, because you’re proposing doing this before they have any sort of physical manifestation of this, it raises all kinds of issues of you’re killing or imprisoning people for things they had no control of of you admit that it’s not a choice, which a sexual orientation (or mental disorder) aren’t. Abusing someone is a choice yes, which is why I wholly support harsh punishments for those, but not mental states. You even said in your first comment that you want to isolate people from society that haven’t done any wrongs. So what are you punishing them for? Having a disposition that developed spontaneously that they had no control over?
Just curious, is pedophilia the only thing you have this stance toward? What about fetishes with adults? Bondage? Duress roleplay? What about sexual attraction to animals or objects? Or more importantly pivoting from sex, what about sociopathy and violent tendencies? Those people can harm children too, with a much higher incidence I might add, and IMO violence is just as if not more ingrained into society as sex, also violent tendencies are much easier to determine than sexual disorders, should we be stopping all attempts at trearment for that and isolating potential violent people from society too and giving them no chance to change or overcome their disorders?
Agree, male victims are never brought up when rape happens, I was personally assaulted myself but thankfully nothing happened. Every time it happens and we hear about it, the comments are sickening.
That sounds pretty bad. Looking at the downvotes in here of all places angers me beyond, because pedophilia or female victims is a cause just about anyone can stand up against, but male victims suddenly sound non existent.
