My father is a great guy, introduced me to basics of Democrats and Republicans as a kid and told me a few shitty things the Us gov did at a young age. He’s a Democrat and we have our disagreements but intl politics don’t come up as often as I’d like and I mostly don’t hide a single political view. I let him know that Ukraine joining NATO is not symbolic, that as Russians, we should be offended by this worldwide witchhunt that should’ve ended in the 90s(shouldn’t have started in the first place) but is now starting war. I let him know that high ranking CIA officials in 2013 knew that crossing the border for NATO would start war, and did it anyways. Now those high ranking officials run the CIA. He believes it(astonishingly) but he needs it to connect to Trump. Is there any cure for this? Is Trump the only person that liberals can criticize or even analyze? Why is this? He can recognize all the prior shit that started this and how it was all BEFORE Trump, but now he says Trump probably set up Ukraine to be easily invaded. I don’t get how you can see Trump’s actions in this

  • Oatsteak
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    192 years ago

    Neoliberalism doesn’t really allow for a systemic outlook. It soundslike he’s looking for a person or group of people to blame to make sense of it all. Sometimes it’s lizardpeople, Jewish people, black people or whoever is a convenient scapegoat, like Trump seems to be for your father (Not that Trump is in any way good, he just isn’t the point, capitalism is). I don’t really know of any other way to break through that than to explain why and how capitalism is the problem in a way he can truly wrap his head around. With how ingrained the neoliberal ideology is in the average westernern however, that’s usually not an easy thing to do. Sooooo many layers of cognitive dissonance and misinformation to go through… it definitely doesn’t happen over night, if at all.

    • @redtea
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      52 years ago

      Good points.

      One problem I have is that people I talk to tend to accept profit seeking is a problem, and they connect the dots between ‘corporations’ answer profit, but then they hit a wall. They cannot be convinced that capitalism and the profit motive necessarily go together. They’ll accept, for instance, that profit seeking and healthcare, education, public works (roadworks, bit building projects), housing, etc, is bad. But they won’t accept that to get rid of the profit motive in these industries you also need to get rid of capitalism.

      No idea how we can help to get others past that hurdle. As you say, there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance.

      Have you found something similar? Or do people you speak to not even see profit as a problem?

      • Oatsteak
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        2 years ago

        I think whether or not someone sees the profit motive as a positive or a negative, the issue is more so that people don’t know what profit is. When most people think of profit they think supply and demand, being at the right place at the right time, selling useful products and services etc. That’s how you make a profit in their eyes. Some may same that’s too bad, it encourages greed, but what can you do? That’s just how things are. Others may say that’s great, it encourages innovation and ambition and provides the people with all kinds of goods and services. Neither stops to ask if their concept of what profit is actually makes sense or holds up in reality. Asking questions like “Where does profit come from?”, following up with “Who provides the services/sells or produces the product which generates profit?”

        They’ll probably reach the conclusion on their own that it is the workers who create profit with their labor. Then you can ask questions like “Where does that profit go?”

        Usually I only discuss these things with people I already know and who already trust me to some extent. Occasionally I’ll end up debating someone who is essentially a stranger but in my experience that usually doesn’t go too well. It just gets competitive and hostile. It’s easier if your words hold weight and the person you’re talking to trusts you to some extent. There has to be certain amount of open mindedness, you know? If you have that, then you can make progress. If you don’t have that then you better have an audience. Hostile arguments don’t work, except for maybe on the people watching. It won’t convince your opponent, it’ll just make them more set in their ways. People are quick to get defensive and cognitive dissonance is not a comfortable sensation, some resist it extremely strongly. That’s why I like the questions technique. It’s effective. Sort of bypasses a lot of the mental blocks and encourages them to think for themselves, not just parrot what they’ve been told all their lives. It can come across as condescending though. I like to soften it by first saying something about how I used to completely agree before I started to wonder wtf profit even is and etc etc.

        Idk if that answers your question exactly, but hopefully it’s still helpful!

  • If you haven’t already, you could try mentioning that the people behind the scenes (heads of CIA, etc.) are inherited across administrations, and show him that equally disgusting atrocities are carried out regardless of who the president is

    (You’re a Russian living in Amerika, then? Stay safe)

    • ButtigiegMineralMapOP
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      112 years ago

      Born here, culturally I feel a bit connected to the East because of my grandma who lived in the Ussr for a period. It’s kinda funny actually, I see anti-Russian sentiment and staunch heavy support for Ukraine everywhere, but it seems Americans don’t actually know what is Russian unless a big Russian flag is draped over it. I regularly wear my Team Russia jersey which features the coat of arms. People have asked me if its from Poland. So I’m not too spooked by the Russophobia, more of an exhaustion thing, like ok guys I get it can you guys be obsessed w Will Smith again or bike lanes like seriously the “Russian people are all Voldomort” “barely human” is gettin old and not particularly fun to engage in when I have to either play defense in a conversation or just submit myself to hearing dumb nonsense.

    • ButtigiegMineralMapOP
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      112 years ago

      Biden being worse than Trump is certainly a hot take, but I agree with that. Trump had some real demons in his administration but Biden’s ppl are making the world actively worse than Trump did. Sendinthetanks was one of my last favorite subs, I haven’t gone on Reddit in a long time. Yea that’s the only thing that really separated Trump from a few other presidents, he was louder and more obnoxious, that’s about it. Pompeo didn’t just get his start from Trump, John Bolton wasn’t exactly working at a grocery store before Trump brought him into his administration, these war hawks are all recycled from one presidency to another, playing a larger or smaller role according to each President’s agenda and nepotism.

      • @carpe_modo
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        62 years ago

        The biggest difference between them after what capitalists they represent is respectability panic politics vs moral panic politics. It’s how democrats manufacture consent and normalize republican policy. Concentration camps were bad under Trump. They’re ignored now. By the time the next republican gets to be president, it’ll just be normal to have them.

        I’ve seen people say democrats were going slower toward fascism than republicans, but they’re really just making sure the temperature of the water rises slow enough the frog won’t notice it’s being boiled.

  • @Inbrededcanadian
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    102 years ago

    Trump does point out some of America’s problem, but then gives complete batshit reasons why said problems exist, I guess ask your father what point he supports Trump on and then recommend reading materials. If all else fail just be more charismatic than him and convince he’s wrong/s

    • ButtigiegMineralMapOP
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      22 years ago

      He doesn’t support Trump, he looks at whatever Trump does and he says “look at (insert Lib here) make fun of Trump” and he’s a big Bill Maher guy

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    1 year ago

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    • ButtigiegMineralMapOP
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      42 years ago

      Yea Biden is probably my best hope because knowing that the “lesser of two evils” brought us here has to be a real mindfuck

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  • @Samubai
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    52 years ago

    I’m honestly so exhausted by libs. If my girlfriends family weren’t related to her, I’d probably just nonchalantly say offensive stuff and pretend it’s no big deal.

    Idk why it is that conservatives and reactionaries are the only ones who are allowed to say some of the worst racist, sexist shit, and people just say “freedumb of peach” but if a commie pinko opens their mouth, it’s antiAmerica!!! Sreeech evil!