This is what i have been talking for a while. See WHO is advocating for eating bugs? This isn’t your planet-friendly green people looking at meat production. This is the financial aristocracy wanting you to cut down on your needs to steal more of your labour.

DankZedong ☭☭☭
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Or, you know, start eating plant based. Lentils are incredibly nutritious and tasty and cost nothing basically. Same goes for other beans. Vegetables are mostly cheap and eco friendly as well. Same goes for rice products and herbs.

I’ve been eating healthier and cheaper since going plant based (which is a stupid term really). I’ve been feelings better, stronger and I even eat more delicious food than when I ate meat. Plant based gets shit on so much because people eat a dry fake-burger once and they refuse to try one of the countless other cultural cuisines that are vega(n) by themselves.

I mean I think it still would be good for animal protein. They breed faster, can eat scraps of things we don’t, and produce less greenhouse gases. It seems gross or whatever sure, but it is more sustainable, and also there’s plenty of cultures which eat bugs all the time. That said doing it because it’s cheaper because capitalists can’t give better sources to everyone is pretty shitty.

@bobs_guns
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Bugs are nutritious for sure, but I’m probably allergic to many of them given that I have a shrimp allergy.

am vegetarian for environmental reasons (although I am aware of the limited scope of consumer-activism) as well as personally ethical ones (although I do not push this on others) – I’d have to know precisely how “aware” insects are, precisely how painful death is, etc. before I’d consider eating them. for the meat-eating population, I’m all for a food-cultural-revolution wrt how we view eating bugs as any different from other forms of meat, esp. if it’s ecologically more sustainable.

I ate some mussels recently bcuz I’ve been convinced that they’re basically sorta comparable to flesh-plants. I found them mostly whatever tasting and kinda personally sinful feeling to eat (they taste like meat), but from my understanding they’re really sustainable compared to other forms of meat and/or fish. just rambling lol, curious of anyone else’s thoughts on any of this.

@cayde6ml
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I’m in a similar boat. I’m not vegan or vegetarian, but I personally think that vegans and vegetarians get an extremely unfair bad rap that is way overblown. I am highly critical of vegans that for instance feed their cats and dogs vegan diets and who shame poor and working class people for eating meat, and I think that communists should fight for the liberation and dignity of every conscious being, not just for humans or sapient lifeforms.

But I do openly call communist vegans and vegetarians as comrades with open arms, and I am myself very sympathetic to militant animal liberation and animal rights groups.

I can definitely agree to treating insects as another sustainable and ethical food source but I do have a principle belief that if you want to eat meat, you shouldn’t be “forced” to eat bugs.

@tisamantis
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feed their cats and dogs vegan diets

these cats and dogs are probably doing fine. so long as the foods are formulated properly, they won’t suffer health complications at all. most forms of cat and dog kibble are mostly made up of grains either way. Feeding cats exclusively meats is actually what the vets don’t recommend for health reasons lol. (source: I have cats and I read ingredient labels, source2: studies below)

shame poor and working class people for eating meat

no one does this. it’s of no benefit to the movement. a whole food plant based diet is usually much less expensive than eating processed meat products anyway. plus you’d decrease risk of heart disease.

another sustainable and ethical food source

It’s probably not ethical at all. Insect cognitive abilities are highly underappreciated.

Sorry if my posts comes across very negative, I just think your views are a bit prejudiced.

P.S. Lol at dislikes. A person comes claiming they support vegans so much, then proceeds to spit out some of the most common myths about veganism, contributing to the same “extremely unfair bad rap that is way overblown” they claim to oppose. (EDIT: now I got called a cockroach and a neoliberal by this very stable individual, lol.)

If a person came here claiming they support the working masses of the people, but then proceeded to spew liberal propaganda, you would find it strange, would you not? Please investigate the matter before passing a hasty judgement, ffs.

Vegan pet studies: https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12917-021-02754-8.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035952/pdf/animals-06-00057.pdf https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0227046&type=printable

Article digesting 1st link for the lazy: https://www.vettimes.co.uk/news/cats-thrive-on-vegan-diet-in-peer-reviewed-study/

@cayde6ml
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I’m talking about like that Vegan teacher who fed her dogs purely plants instead of the meat it was required, for instance.

Vegans have done that. And food deserts are a thing, not to mention that many plant-based food are overloaded with so much sodium and shit that its very unhealthy.

Insect cognitive abilities are underappreciated, I was merely talking about the eusocial insects.

You’re coming across as hostile.

@tisamantis
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You’re coming across as hostile.

Sorry? Vegans are treated extremely harshly in my country, despite everyone claiming to be very “concerned” with animal well-being. (despite doing nothing)

How are my views prejudiced whatsoever?

“vegans killing dogs and cats by putting them on vegan diets” is a very common anti-vegan argument, which falls apart completely when one does an investigation on the topic.

many plant-based food are overloaded with so much sodium and shit that its very unhealthy.

Bro, most of my diet is grains, legumes and cheap vegetables. (I’m not a westerner) Vegans who eat only processed garbage are strange, and most vegans are very critical of corporations that produce these. (either due to these corporations also selling meat products, or due to animal testing)

I did mention a “whole food plant-based diet”, so if your views weren’t prejudiced, you’d know what I’m talking about. (it’s extremely common)

Food deserts are a thing

Most people who can afford to eat beef, pork, and chicken often are usually Westerners. People in food deserts are usually the ones who don’t eat meat, whether they’d like to eat it or not. And naturally, they’re the ones eating bugs also.

An American who can eat a burger can eat a vegetable soup or rice and beans. There’s no physical force or lack of opportunity preventing them from doing so.

you shouldn’t be “forced” to eat bugs

I’ll partially agree, but this sounds strange. No one will come to your place and force you to eat bugs at gunpoint. Alas, it’s strange how people in Uganda eat grasshoppers without complaining much, and people in the West scream in unison about being the ones oppressed.

I said the same thing on this site before, but we’re living in a critical moment for humanity and your consumption has a footprint in terms of emissions.

Vegans are doing an effort to cut down on these, and when compared with a beef burger guzzler, their consumption habits and emissions are much closer to a person living in an impoverished country. Amidst this, people who do nothing at all but talk say “noooo but think of the cats!!!”. It’s utter nonsense.

At this point I’m just venting, sorry again.

P.S. Maybe look at Black Veganism. I find it almost completely unsurprising that African Americans are much more likely to be vegan than the general population in the US. Veganism is not a bougie lifestyle, and being a cheerleader for a movement that’s insanely easy to participate in directly is just a sign of a lack of will IMO.

(CIA won’t assassinate you for being vegan, a reactionary won’t bash your head in for being vegan, etc. This is what I mean when I say that being a vegan isn’t hard.)

@cayde6ml
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Whole food plant based diet could have been a buzz phrase, I don’t know you. Whole foods plant based diet is of course a real-thing but you may have been using buzz words.

You’re overusing multiple strawman arguments, and I never said diet doesn’t have an impact.

@tisamantis
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You’re accusing me of being hostile despite me apologizing several times (was it 3? 4?), completely ignoring me when I list your prejudiced views (1. veganism is when middle class wh*te man 2. veganism is when processed junk food 3. veganism is when cats die, there would be more if we talked longer), and every clue for investigation I provide, and now you’re accusing me of making straw man arguments and buzzy words. Amazing.

Why are you even talking about animal rights or vegans if you’re lacking basic information on the topic? I can tell that you’ve not even bothered to watch an Earthling Ed video, let alone cooking guides, a long doc, read a paper or seen a video of male chicks being macerated or something.

And if you did all these things (odds are near zero), how are you still not vegan? Are your taste buds more important than life, towards which you claim to have empathy? Is it too much of a pain to not eat a burger?

The only “hostile” thing I’m doing is accusing you of being a cheerleader for a movement while spewing propaganda brought up by delusional meat eaters against that same movement. It’s very hypocritical behavior. The rest is just me trying to provide info for your own investigation. (which I know you won’t bother doing)

P.S. I never thought of this as a debate, but merely a long and tedious way of saying “You’ve not done research”, but aren’t you being a bit loopy here?

You’re overusing multiple strawman arguments, and I never said diet doesn’t have an impact.

It’s very easy to end any discussion by suggesting that the person you’re talking with is being intellectually dishonest, but so far you’re the one who has been dishonest, as evidenced by your lack of response to anything I said, which is the reason why it may seem like I’m making strawmen.

If you said diet has an impact, why are you choosing a diet that has a negative impact??? Both in terms of emissions, and your personal health, and lives of other sentient creatures???

I’ve never accused you of saying that diet has no impact, by the way. I was only providing info. This is, ironically, a real straw man.

“whole food planet based diet is full of salt” is legitimately one of the most ignorant things I’ve ever heard a non-vegan say. Saying “nboooo I didn’t know, vegans say buzzwords often!” does not make it any less ignorant.

If you were truly honest, you’d just say that you like eating meat, and say that I’m being an annoying vegan who pushes their beliefs onto others lol.

P.P.S. If you’re still seething about cats, read these three studies. Why the heck must I be the one searching for them??? How do you even do research or obtain information??? And why is a bloodmouth who does absolutely nothing the “authority on animal rights” here??? Is saying “you’re a potty mouth” really what makes a person right, in spite of their real actions???

https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12917-021-02754-8.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035952/pdf/animals-06-00057.pdf https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0227046&type=printable

Article digesting 1st link for the lazy: https://www.vettimes.co.uk/news/cats-thrive-on-vegan-diet-in-peer-reviewed-study/

@cayde6ml
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I never said veganism is when middle-class white man.

I’m sure that one person is the difference between a multinational billion dollar corporation making a profit and going under.

I never said a whole foods plant based diet is full of salt, I said many plant based foods are, like eating a salad from a large grocery store as an example.

Jeebus Christ, chillax.

You’re just further proving my point.

@tisamantis
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Jeebus Christ, chillax.

Only after you stop talking about animal rights when munching on pieces of dead animal flesh. Answer my questions first, lmao. Why are you not a vegan, exactly?

I never said veganism is when middle-class white man.

Why are you bringing up food deserts then? Very interesting pattern of thoughts you have there. (It’s extremely, extremely obvious that you don’t come from a destitute place yourself, and you’re just trying to defend Western American consumption practices)

I’m sure that one person is the difference between a multinational billion dollar corporation making a profit and going under.

??? This discussion has very little to do with these corporations. I only brought them up to say that vegans aren’t corporate drones. ???

It’s very easy to deflect personal responsibility, as usual. Alas, by regurgitating anti-vegan drivel you help create an environment where my cat, for example, has to be fed non-vegan foods because vegan options are “scary and spooky”, and thus expensive and inaccessible to masses at large. Or an environment where large chunks of the population (disproportionately - racial minorities) have to eat borgirs and get heart disease. Good job.

I never said a whole foods plant based diet is full of salt, I said many plant based foods are, like eating a salad from a large grocery store as an example.

You literally did, and had to be corrected because you did not know what plant based even means, and your perception of a vegan food is very strange lol. Why specifically a salad? And who even buys salads at groceries???

You’re just further proving my point.

Which point, exactly? That evil vegans shame and oppress the working people by calling them names?

The working masses have no benefit in being ignorant in this day and age, especially when their health and the environment are at stake. Are you assuming every worker is the same as you, a hypocrite incapable of changing for better, but who still needs to parrot vegan-sounding messages about how it’s bad to harm animals?

I disagree with this mentality completely, and as the percentage of the vegan population increases every year, it is very clear that veganism is a progressive force and your aversion to it stems not from your own will, but from a history of indoctrination.

Please stop trying to justify your shortcomings and stop lying to yourself. You wouldn’t eat animals if you cared about their well-being.

P.S. If Americans were forcibly converted to a vegan diet, maybe our odds of surviving this century would be slightly higher. The alternative is doing so voluntarily, which requires…individual action and personal responsibility. This discussion has mostly been a waste of time, we’ll never reach understanding.

@cayde6ml
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I also never said vegans were “corporate drones” or that vegan food was spooky and scary. I was referencing corporate greed as shorthand for factory farming.

Mentioning food desserts doesn’t mean I’m rich, that’s like saying mentioning droughts means I drink 10 gallons of water everyday, and I despise American food culture and lifestyles.

@tisamantis
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No, mentioning food deserts means that you think vegans are rich, not yourself. Good job missing the point entirely. This is true, because of what you said in quote about “pricing”. If you despise American food culture, you’re doing a very good job in supporting it by opposing its main antithesis.

(plant-based diet is literally cheap unprocessed home-cooked meals made out of plants, as opposed to an American culture of eating greasy processed meat burgers in a fast food shop at idiotically high prices, thus they are antithetical to each other…)

When I said “spooky and scary”, I was talking about vegan cat food, and you did find it spooky and scary in your first post lol. Please don’t twist words in a weird manner. Is my manner of writing weird?

And yes, you didn’t say that vegans are not corporate drones. I said that to make a point that…vegans are not rich middle class libs… Not every sentence in my posts is reply specifically against your sentences…

@cayde6ml
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You’re being a raging droid and making contradictory arguments while projecting your flaws and faults onto me. You never once corrected me.

Saying food deserts exist is not in anyway the same as saying veganism is middle-class white man.

I would call you a cockroach, but that is an insult to cockroaches. You know shit about me or my love for non-human life.

I’m not going to argue with you or your harassment, liberal.

I understand perfectly. You’re a hostile neoliberal with colonized ideology. Now stop harassing me over me meeting you halfway, you legit sound deranged when I only said vegans get a mostly unfair bad rap.

And before pulling the ableist card, I’m neurodivergent.

@tisamantis
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What an excellent display of civility. Should I apologize more? Why is trying to have a conversation “harassment”? Does being called a hypocrite really warrant such a furious response? If you’re not a hypocrite, you can prove it easily.

What faults am I projecting onto you exactly? Aren’t you the one doing “projection” right now? For instance, I don’t think I’ve “raged” much over the course of this conversation; and as evidenced by my constant apologies, I don’t think I’m being too hostile. I started this conversation by saying your views are prejudiced, so I have to write walls of text to explain how they are prejudiced.

I say eating meat is bad, and I don’t eat meat. No projection or hypocrisy here. I wouldn’t say I love animals, but at least I don’t eat them. I wouldn’t eat my children or a lover after all…

I understand perfectly. You’re a hostile neoliberal with colonized ideology.

I’m sorry, but you’re very bad at “understanding”. You can easily guess my nationality and whether I’m a neoliberal or not by going over my bio and post history… It seems that I got one neoliberal banned for smearing the Soviet people and their history, so that’s minor evidence?

I would call you a cockroach, but that is an insult to cockroaches.

What’s up with hate of cockroaches? These insects are amazing! And is your behavior really a good look for non-vegans? I apologize every single post and get shit for it, and it’s fine if you call me a cockroach because I’m being principled and staying true to my beliefs? Really?

You know shit about me or my love for non-human life.

You literally said yourself in the beginning that you eat animals, so I know something, and I know enough.

Which of my arguments are contradictory? Please explain! I think they’re relatively coherent, and are in sync with my lifestyle and ideology!

Saying food deserts exist is not in anyway the same as saying veganism is middle-class white man.

Your intent from the start was to say that veganism is inaccessible to the working masses due to being expensive, which is comically untrue, as plenty of people in the Global South are vegan out of necessity, not choice. This is technically an assumption, but this is something most anti-vegans say, and it’s further supported by your idea that vegans get…salads…from…groceries…I’m sorry my argumentation is worded weird.

You’re not living in a food desert and you aren’t an indigenous person, but actions of people like you harm these groups of people via emissions. ffs.

You never once corrected me.

You didn’t know what a plant based diet is, assumed it’s processed stuff with salt, and I had to say that it isn’t?

You said cats can’t eat vegan foods, I provided studies where they ate vegan foods and were healthy. Please actually read my posts. Writing them takes a long time.

ableist card

I legit don’t know what that even is, I’m not on social media often, sorry. Does being neurodivergent really give you a pass to call others cockroaches though?

you legit sound deranged

Clearly, not calling someone a cockroach is deranged and hostile, and calling someone a cockroach is normal and civil. I really really hope vascular disease won’t bring you karmic retribution.

P.S. Cockroaches and mantises are technically in the same superorder, so this insult is…strangely funny in this instance?

P.P.S. I won’t respond to you anymore to save time. Go do more research on this topic if you truly value animals or people. I hope you’re proud of yourself for insulting me when I’m just trying to help you.

@cayde6ml
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I never once assumed a vegan based diet is about salt, I said an overabadundance of salt is often often found in plant-based and salad prepackaged foods. Like eating salad from McDonalds that prepares their salad next to their shitty burgers, or salad overflowing with croutons and additives in a grocery store.

I never once said people in the global south aren’t often vegan out of choice, I said its harder. Keep up.

I read your posts, and they are still rife with contradictions.

Maybe if it pleases you, I’m slightly less hostile to the idea of feeding cats and dogs vegan diets, since it is in theory sound. Yet cats are still almost exclusively carnivores where as dogs are more omnivorous.

You seemed more like you were insulting when I was trying to meet you halfway, and I never once mentioned anything about feeling prejudiced towards vegans, I actively defended them.

I’ve only been hating and aware of the conditions on factory farms since I was like 8 years old. One person going vegan isn’t going to stop the abuse of animals, and a few million people that save 200 animals a year going vegan will barely put a dent in corporate profits.

Most of the research I have done over vegan related topics leads to scientists taking the position of advocating for a mass reduction in farming animals for meat, and while that is a noble goal, it is still about harm reduction under capitalism and not addressing the for profit motive.

I wasn’t aware you could tell my race or location through a computer screen.

I am aware of the contradictions between liking animals and eating meat. That point is a non-starter. I’d almost definitely be vegan if it wasn’t for the massive library-sized of health risks and detriments and pricing.

You still acted high and mighty and you seemed pretty mad when I brushed off your superiority masked as aloofness when you insulted and targeted me with your loaded “sorry” and “prejudice” and your flimsy evidence after I was simply advocating for meeting vegans halfway and supporting animal rights and not blaming working class people that have a harder time going vegan, but whatever.

@tisamantis
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“NO, I DIDN’T MEAN EXACTLY WHAT YOU’RE SUGGESTING SO YOU’RE WRONG”

You don’t understand the point. You are not a unique existence. There are thousands upon thousands who share your views in an identical permutation. I don’t have to explicitly hear something from you to guess your view on some matter. Even you do it all the time, if you, for example, see someone with “Anarcho-Monarchist” in their bio.

Why must I respond to you again?

I wasn’t aware you could tell my race or location through a computer screen.

There’s lots of things you can infer based on a person’s speech patterns, their lifestyle…or maybe the fact that they’re using a computer w/ internet access and connecting to a website with an extremely limited user base, which spiked in response to a quarantine on an anglo website.

I may be wrong, but in poor countries, most people make salads at home instead of buying them at a grocery. Sounds very much like an anglo thing.

I read your posts, and they are still rife with contradictions.

List them then, dummy. I asked you to do this before already, no? There is no bigger contradiction here than you claiming to love animals despite eating them. Go apply the same logic to your family. (actually don’t)

I’ve only been hating and aware of the conditions on factory farms since I was like 8 years old. One person going vegan isn’t going to stop the abuse of animals, and a few million people that save 200 animals a year going vegan will barely put a dent in corporate profits.

Bro, like heck off already. You do heck all and criticize a constantly growing movement for actually doing things. It’s like a critically online Twitter “ML” criticizing an an on org on the ground for organizing a community garden or mutual aid.

You could replace “animals” with “workers”, and “going vegan” with “joining unions” in that quote block and have some perfect defeatist anticommunist drivel. Good job.

blaming working class people that have a harder time going vegan

No one said or ever says anything like this. Much more blacks are vegan than whites, which of the two groups do you think is more wealthy or predisposed to heart disease? I’m saying if more went vegan, it would benefit their health and help us deal with climate change. In time, most vegans will be workers and most workers will be vegan. (The 1st half is already the case…)

it is still about harm reduction under capitalism and not addressing the for profit motive

A. There are many more reasons to become vegan than trying to get at corporations. Actually read a poll on why people go vegan. Investigate. It’s an organic movement.

B. These efforts are already successful in achieving some of their goals, unlike the left movement in the US. (face reality)

Vegans are amongst the the most progressive movements, and they’re much more receptive to socialist ideas than the general population. . (go on r/vegancirclejerk and check…) It’s natural that they would carry biases and not know theory very well.

Go crit them all you want, but all you do to help the animals is sit on your ass, so they rightfully won’t believe anything you have to say. It would be like a wh*te man preaching to a black neighborhood on how they’re fighting for their rights wrong.

Some struggles will not disappear after the revolution, and we’re running out of time. Going plant-based would alleviate some of emissions caused by Western Countries, resulting in benefit for those abroad and those expected to face the harshest realities of climate change.

I’d almost definitely be vegan if it wasn’t for the massive library-sized of health risks and detriments and pricing.

The fact you’re able to say this nonsense shows that you either get your information from carnivore keto channels on youtube, or you’ve not done any research.

There’s a large body of studies suggesting vegan diets are a potential health intervention…Go read the damn China Study (ISBN: 1-932100-38-5), this study (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07315724.2020.1869625) which compares plant-based to a Mediterranean diet (actual porky lite diet), or just…enter “plant-based diet <insert health condition here>” in Google Scholar and go sifting for more studies, ffs. Why am I supposed to do research for you?

According to some polls, at least half of vegans list health benefits as one of their reasons for adopting this diet. Are you suggesting you’re somehow capable of making better decisions and more informed than millions of people, who are not (self-admitted) hypocrites???

In the same post, you admit that there are lots of people in the Global South who are plant based, but you still think plant-based diets are expensive. Very consistent.

Virtually everyone who ever goes vegan says they save money by doing so…

Mentioning food desserts doesn’t mean I’m rich, that’s like saying mentioning droughts means I drink 10 gallons of water everyday, and I despise American food culture and lifestyles.

No, mentioning food deserts means that you think vegans are rich, not yourself. Good job missing the point entirely. This is true, because of what you said in quote above about “pricing”. If you despise American food culture, you’re doing a very good job in supporting it by opposing its main antithesis.

never mentioned anything about feeling prejudiced towards vegans, I actively defended them.

I’m a real vegan and I attest to the fact that you’re completely uninformed and parrot meat-eater propaganda. This kind of behavior pushes vegans away, not towards socialism. And who are you to judge who is welcome in the leftist movement, and who is not?

You still acted high and mighty and you seemed pretty mad when I brushed off your superiority masked as aloofness when you insulted and targeted me with your loaded “sorry”

I equate word “prejudiced” with “biased”, because my English is not very good, and use it because you are uninformed.

Almost every single one of my posts on this website has some variation of “sorry” or “thank you” in it. I think it’s just courtesy, and these are my favorite words. Will you have the courtesy to apologize to me for calling me a “an existence worse than cockroaches”?

By the way, knowing how awful animal farming is since 8 does not make you any more better than the average dude. All you did was bum around. I know children who went vegan on their own accord, so you’re literally admitting to having worse self-control and willpower than a 10 year old.

Last link: https://veganolio.com/why-do-people-go-vegan-motivations-and-statistics/ - somewhat informative website. Check their articles and sources…

@mauveOkra
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8d

It’s disappointing how controversial veganism is in left and communist spaces, I’m glad it hasn’t discouraged you

@tisamantis
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18d

IMO it’s natural and within expectation. Thanks for responding!

People are blasted with advertisements of meat products since early childhood, it must be very difficult for most to break out of certain habits on a psychological level. Alas, I was probably being fairly rude to them after all. :(

@afellowkid
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28d

It’s also been studied in psychology and neurology that it becomes more difficult for people to change their view on issues that cause them cognitive dissonance, the brain will automatically filter out dissonance-causing information, making it extra difficult for people to change their opinions on contentious topics, and it has also been shown that people will re-interpret their own memories or values to suit their decisions after the fact (Source, Source, Source, Source). In looking through some sources on this I happened to notice one that is about meat eating, here.

@cayde6ml
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49d

How are my views prejudiced whatsoever?

@tisamantis
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89d

I’m vegan, so I wouldn’t endorse eating bugs, but IMO the aversion to bugs as a form of food is almost as silly as the inorganic and sudden push to get people to eat bugs to “save the planet”/“get protein on their plate”. Isn’t “crunchy on the outside, juicy on the inside” a pretty positive way to describe a food’s texture? Fried wasps are delicious, supposedly.

Animal agriculture is a complete disaster btw. Just eat a damn plant. It’s likely that plenty of people will have to eat bugs or die as a consequence of climate change either way.

Yummy

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