• poVoq
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    73 years ago

    Isn’t that rather an article about being a woman in India (and similar highly patriarchic societies) then about FOSS? It seems like all the examples given could have happened just the same in other online or offline communities. I am not saying that it is ok because of it happens so often, but lets not pretend this is solely a FOSS problem.

    • @Brattea@lemmy.ml
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      13 years ago

      Why is it that there’s a need to invalidate the way this woman feels about her exclusion in these communities? Do you think that she hasn’t thought about this before posting? Is there a reason you assume the society you live in isn’t patriarchal?

      It doesn’t seem to me that she is trying to disparage people in the community or the community either. She is talking particularly about the dismissal of her viewpoint and input about how the community enables harassment, and othering treatment of women.

      This piece is a condemnation of the men that mistreat women. Not all men. And the responses that posts like this get often make me less trustful of a community. The down votes and the instant reaction to to downplay how she feels is likely to make me leave platforms, workplaces, classrooms, etc. Until I end up trusting no men at all.

    • @Peter1986c@lemmy.ml
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      33 years ago

      If you read the actual “article” (it is Medium, so “blog post” is the better term), you would now that it is mostly about being a woman in India. So the downvotes are for a misleading title for a blog post that makes one point but “supports” another. I hope I am wording this well enough. P.S.: it is indeed important to have “representation”, but I do not see how this blog post nor your comment are actually helping that.

      • @fruechtchen@lemmy.mlOP
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        3 years ago

        the FOSS scene in india is quite big. i think it usually doesn’t make much sense to differentiate experiences on country: you wouldn’t do that when the country would be netherland or germany, i guesss. Only in india, it matters.

        different exmaple: when some male person from india publishes for instance an article about tech things in FOSS (for instance a new feature they have been working on) it wouldn’t make much sense to highlight the country, it would be only natural to think this person as part of the FOSS scene. why is this case different?

        • @fruechtchen@lemmy.mlOP
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          33 years ago

          another point:

          when people describe a bad experience, it is usually very helpful to show symphathy with their bad experience. For instance if a person hurts their foot, it is only natural to wish they get better soon. It makes feel people better. However, if you respond with “don’t complain that much, it surely isn’t hurting that much.” other people won’t describe similar problems because they remember your response and fear to receive a similar response when posting their experience.

          that is “Solidarity”.

          women are underrepresented in FOSS and tech in general. so when they experience bad stuff, it leaves a bad impression seeing that nothing has strucutrally changed.

          • @Peter1986c@lemmy.ml
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            33 years ago

            Please note that my comments were mostly reactions to @Brattea@lemmy.ml, not to the woman in the blog post. They (Brattea, not the blogger) were complaining about downvotes, and that stuff is so non-constructive and childish I had to react. I know now, I fell for it again. I responded to online bait.

            On your point:

            However, if you respond with “don’t complain that much, it surely isn’t hurting that much.”

            Oh for Jack’s sake! That is absolutely not what anybody you (and Brattea) are arguing with were actually writing! Fallacies are fun I guess. :(

            women are underrepresented in FOSS and tech in general. so when they experience bad stuff, it leaves a bad impression seeing that nothing has structurally changed.

            As said before, in many places in the world this is all woven into far more complex problems, whereof the solution is probably also far more complex.

            As PoVoq already stated, some of us are getting tired of the “oh those FOSS nerds have no social skills and treat women badly” stories. They are marginalising folk and are no actual solution to anything.

            • @fruechtchen@lemmy.mlOP
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              3 years ago

              Please note that my comments were mostly reactions to @Brattea@lemmy.ml, not to the woman in the blog post.

              ah thanks.

              They (Brattea, not the blogger) were complaining about downvotes, and that stuff is so non-constructive and childish I had to react. I know now, I fell for it again. I responded to online bait.

              Yes. and i reacted to you to show that @Brattea@lemmy.ml, is not alone, to show solidarity. Non-constructive answers (for instance trolling, shitposting, making puns of things, saying people like things.) are also very common comments and my impression is that you don’t care about regular non-constructive comments but only about Brattea’s complaint of the lack of solidarity.

              Oh for Jack’s sake! That is absolutely not what anybody you (and Brattea) are arguing with were actually writing! Fallacies are fun I guess. :(

              well true, but it is a very common reaction.

              As said before, in many places in the world this is all woven into far more complex problems, whereof the solution is probably also far more complex.

              that is also true.

              They are marginalising folk and are no actual solution to anything.

              the actual solution would be to read many books how patriarchy works in modern societies. which i do regularly - altough i am not experiencing sexual harassment/sexism and read about patriarchy because i want to show solidarity and avoid common pitfalls in dealing with sexual harassment and sexism.

              if we had a constructive and thoughtful conversation in FOSS about sexism and structrucal patriarchy, i woulnd’t complain, but we don’t have that.

              • @fruechtchen@lemmy.mlOP
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                3 years ago

                also notice:

                let’s assume this article would get viral with many upvotes and many people showing solidarity and such things. male people in india would also see that and because of the attention this topic gets it would create a big discussion in the foss scene in india (it is simplified, stuff usually doesn’t work that simple, but still it forces people to think about it).

                so that means: the high number of downvotes decrease the likelyhood the patriarchy in india crumbles. And yes it wouldnt’ be destroyed either way, because it is a slow process to destroy patriarchy - but still the discussion is important.

                when you actually want to destroy patriarchy, showing solidarity when people complain about patriarchy is the most basic thing you can do to help.

                thanks. :)

                • @Brattea@lemmy.ml
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                  3 years ago

                  He doesn’t want to show solidarity with women though. It’s about his feelings. He is entitled to be seen as virtuous without doing anything! It’s the reason he responded to me in the way that he did. Please do not over look the condescending nature of his comments and reply guying behavior. I tried gently to explain it but all I got were nit picks.

                  Another issue with men in FOSS is tone policing. Look at how entitled he felt to tell me how I had to respond how this woman had to title it for her to be credible.

                  They (Brattea, not the blogger) were complaining about downvotes, and that stuff is so non-constructive and childish I had to react.

                  And here it is again. I was thoughtful and constructive until I was talked to like someone who didn’t know anything. I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT THE DOWNVOTES. I complained about the men who were so sensitive they cannot take any notion that they might be responsible. They downvote her post (edit) not (edit) because they dislike it, it’s about overpowering her perspective. It’s about speaking over her. It’s about isolating the issue to India so they cannot be held accountable

                  Notice how when a woman makes a point “complaining” is the way it’s described. No one stopped to see I was making a point.

                  Any man who understands this knows not to downvote. They know not to put down women speaking up. They know how to read and listen and try not to repeat the behavior that perpetuates the abuse in her life. They read that and think “have i done any of this”, “have I acted in a way which enables anything she has described?”. And then they become better men overtime.

                  And the other thing here is watch I’m gonna call it out before it happens I will be framed as rude or argumentative because I dared to speak the truth about how women are treated by shitty men.

        • @Peter1986c@lemmy.ml
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          23 years ago

          the FOSS scene in india is quite big. i think it usually doesn’t make much sense to differentiate experiences on country: you wouldn’t do that when the country would be netherland or germany, i guesss. Only in india, it matters.

          Because we know that India is considered quite patriarchal. And if you followed the news in more recent years they have quite a reputation. So when the medium post lined by OP (you) is mostly about men from patriarchal societies misbehaving, it is quite disingenuous (is that a word, I am not sure) to say it is the fault of FOSS. The Netherlands, Germany etc. do not have the reputation India does, nor have I heard their FOSS communities are hostile to women. So once more, it is silly to blame FOSS (communities) globally for something of which:

          1. the severity (or even existance) greatly varies across the world.
          2. where it exists, is probably influenced heavily by other factors than (wo)men in a computer club

          different exmaple: when some male person from india publishes for instance an article about tech things in FOSS (for instance a new feature they have been working on) it wouldn’t make much sense to highlight the country, it would be only natural to think this person as part of the FOSS scene. why is this case different?

          You are shifting the goal post mate.

          • @fruechtchen@lemmy.mlOP
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            33 years ago

            well i agree that india has a reputation being quite patriarchical, but reputation is misleading: also germany has patriarchical structures but has no wide pubilc reputation for that. it is surely different in intensity, but still in germany 1/3 of women experience sexual violence in their live. as structural problems are always different in every country, it doesn’t make much sense to highlight those of india.

            i mean, i probably wouldn’t complain if you used a different wording and showed solidirarity with the author, while linking to for instance an queerfeminst blog entry describing how the patriarchical strucutres in india makes the live of queerfeminist (and also men who do are not considered to be manly) worse.

            i wouldn’t say much when you would show interest in fixing those issues, for instance also by explaining that you are part of awareness teams of conferences where people can show up when they experience any sort of harassment. i wouldn’t say much when i could trust you having a deep understanding of awareness related work.

            what i don’t understand: FOSS has big conferences where people around the world join together. it could happen that a women from US visists a debconf or something in india, and also a women from anywhere visists a conference where male, patriarchic people from india attend. For both people this post would be very interesting and it leaves a bad impression that you downvoted (probably).

            • @Brattea@lemmy.ml
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              23 years ago

              THIS 100% AS A QUEER WOMAN I WOULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND EVEN VIOLENTLY ASSAULTED FOR PARTICIPATING IN FOSS THE SAME WAY A MAN WOULD! THANK YOU!

      • @Brattea@lemmy.ml
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        23 years ago

        Well every experience is different. She’s in India. It’s her story. I see no need to put representation in quotes.

        “but I do not see how this blog post nor your comment are actually helping that.”

        You can bring a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. I can point out how shitty it is that this gets downvoted for the wrong reasons but I cant force people to see it that way. My comment cannot help those that don’t want to see how an example of exclusionary behavior exists around them.

        And the worst part is even well meaning people can fail to see the point.

        • poVoq
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          3 years ago

          People are tired of the “oh those FOSS nerds have no social skills and treat women badly” stories, when in reality they are no better or worse than the general society they live in.

          If anything, that this has been a constant topic in FOSS circles shows that the typical FOSS contributor probably cares more (not less) about treating women as their equals.

          • @Brattea@lemmy.ml
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            13 years ago

            “in reality they are no better or worse than the general society they live in.”

            Easy to say if you aren’t a woman. No man has to try this hard to make a point in these spaces.

            “If anything, that this has been a constant topic in FOSS circles shows that the typical FOSS contributor probably cares more (not less) about treating women as their equals.”

            It says that with your premises, It could just as easily mean that its being discussed because it is a problem, or that the few people that do call it out realize how bad of a problem it is.

        • @Peter1986c@lemmy.ml
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          3 years ago

          Well every experience is different. She’s in India.

          And our point was that maybe if the title had said “FOSS communities in India” (for example) no one would have taken issue with her blog post.

          It’s her story

          And? What is it that you try to tell with that statement?

          I see no need to put representation in quotes.

          I did use quotes because I was not sure it was the right term (I am a fluent, but not a native speaker of English).

          You can bring a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

          What is the relevancy of that proverb?

          I can point out how shitty it is that this gets downvoted for the wrong reasons

          The only thing you did was complain about downvotes, state the downvotes were lousy (without providing an argument to that opinion) and state (more or less) that we are bad people (I am paraphrasing).

          but I cant force people to see it that way […] And the worst part is even well meaning people can fail to see the point.

          No, but you could make a more mature and serious effort to convince us by having properly formed statements (of opinion), forming logically valid (and preferably true) arguments to back those opinions up. Without phallacies, whining, shifting the goal post or acting we are all bad/stupid/uncaring.

          TLDR, you are losing credibility hand over fist in this discussion.

          • @Brattea@lemmy.ml
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            23 years ago

            And our point was that maybe if the title had said “FOSS communities in India” (for example) no one would have taken issue with her blog post.

            Translation: I don’t wanna believe that I could be perpetuating the problem.

            When I say its her story, I mean I don’t expect her to make a hyper specific title so it doesn’t offend you.

            I said that proverb because people like you won’t drink, however somewill. And this desire to shut her down comes from an entitlement to be recognized as good and virtuous.

            I provided plenty of arguments you just don’t respond to them because you feel they aren’t worthy. Which tells me a lot about how you treat women.

            No, but you could make a more mature and serious effort to convince us by having properly formed statements (of opinion), forming logically valid (and preferably true) arguments to back those opinions up.

            You don’t get to dictate how I speak. Very condecending. Honestly this is why I don’t take you serious.

            Without phallacies, whining, shifting the goal post or acting we are all bad/stupid/uncaring.

            I never said any of those things I about people. Also “whining” translation, I’m whining about this post and what this woman said so I’m gonna be condecending. How dare you talk to me like I’m a child.

            TLDR, you are losing credibility hand over fist in this discussion.

            Losing credibility among sensitive men who wish to silence women for speaking out about abusive behavior.

            TLDR This comes off as very insecure and I never wished to have credibility among men like you. I have come to the conclusion you are not one of the well intentioned men who don’t get it. Rather you wish to keep your position of power in society even when it requires women accept abusive treatment from men.