35
image

“libcenter” “centrists”

@ksynwa
admin
1416d

What would libcenter even mean? Sounds like word salad.

@Makan
1216d

It is word salad.

@SovietIntl
1015d

It’s revealing isn’t it? even if we presupposed everything they said about China is true government wise, they’re condemning nearly a billion people to death because they don’t approve of their state? We should’ve genocided all Germans while we are it, oh and the Japanese too, heck let’s finish off the those pesky Africans once and for all. Western chauvinism is a sad thing and because the western “holy city” that is America is dethroned, they’re expressing that fear of the unknown in brutal senseless ways. But even I can’t judge them, they’re aimless and the establishment has duped them all.

Muad'Dibber
admin
creator
815d

It is really damn sad, western propo is so effective in not only stirring support for imperialist wars, but in convincing people that even innocent civilians deserve to be killed.

oh and the Japanese too

Well in some ways…

Hmmm, I’m torn about this. Obviously what they said is way over the line, but should we really be “moderate” and give excuses for China? I mean, they still are a dictatorship with horrendous mass-surveilance and human rights practices, which is committing, at this moment, a cultural genocide and which is gaining progressively more leeway in the global economy and geopolitical panorama. If anything I only disagree with their methods because they would target innocent civilians, who are the primary victims of said government, rather than the government itself as much as possible.

@CriticalResist8
6edit-213d

There’s nothing to be torn about, and you admit it yourself. What they said was over the line and is repeated all over front page Reddit. Don’t be confused, you have to be sure in your opinions.

Secondly we don’t have to give excuses for China because they’re not doing anything out of the ordinary. Here is a US Colonel explaining in 2015 how they would “hypothetically” destabilize China through Xinjiang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Cvx0R8iDo. Xinjiang has oil, and an extremist religious terrorist group which the US has been bombing in Pakistan since 2010. Then suddenly the ETIM is not a terrorist group anymore, and they stopped existing? Despite the US Army bombing them all the way to 2019? Give me a break. If you can’t see how blatant this propaganda is then I can’t help you. (Edit following:) East Turkestan is a name conjured in the 1940s by separatist groups, and then inherited by ETIM and legitimised by the Uyghur World Congress, who apparently don’t understand their own history – or don’t want to. Uyghurs are not Turks, they are a population resulting from millennia of contact between different tribes. They are also not the only minority living in Xinjiang historically and nor is Islam the only religion historically practiced in Xinjiang. And let’s be real, before all of this came out nobody even knew Xinjiang existed or where it was on the map (except the CIA I guess).

Here is a video of people living in Xinjiang asking western media to stop making shit up: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkbOIKUddMBtp0_xEFqn4zey48kkgJq5w. As China has succesfully contained the covid epidemic better than any capitalist country has done, people can now visit China and Xinjiang again and there are plenty of videos of people going there. You can see people are happy, walking down the street. Police officers don’t carry weapons, and they are few. Stores are open as usual and people talk in their language. So where is the oppression exactly?

What’s happening really is that the Empire is losing their privilege as countries turn towards China and not the World Bank, IMF or USA for trade and funds. Germany is moving towards China for tech and possibly covid vaccines. Back in 2020, Pompeo made a heartfelt appeal to the European Parliament asking them to “uwu pwease don’t trade with china but actually buy from us uwu” and as soon as he disconnected the call, the parliament promptly voted to give China the 5G contract. They are losing, they’re getting obliterated in the marketplace of ideas because their imperialist model is outdated. They are fighting to salvage what they can but instead of abandoning imperialism (which is impossible because it would destroy any capitalist society), they’re ramping up propaganda against China, hoping to turn people away.

do you know why African countries turn to China to get their loans? Because China offers better deals. That’s it. Sankara, who was marxist-leninist, said it too as far back as 1989: he would have liked to trade with France, but France didn’t want to trade with him. So he traded with the USSR. These countries want to develop their forces, they will take the better deal. The IMF makes short-term loans with unreasonable interest rates, and they also force you to adopt free-market policies so that they can export European capital – this is not a secret. China makes long-term loans, routinely forgives them, funds infrastructure and other vital projects (who cares about a port if you can’t get the containers there in the first place? But there’s very little money to be made in infrastructure). They don’t care about your government system, they will trade with you. They won’t tell you you must change your political system to be more accommodating to them. That is why China is becoming the world’s first superpower.

I mean come on, Adrian Zenz, the sole source for whatever comes out of Xinjiang and makes our way in western media (I’m discounting the “satellite images” because they’re literally google maps images that show factories and schools and these geniuses think they’re concentration camps lmao) can’t even read. He changed an 8.7% sterilisation rate to 80%. That is either wilfully malicious, or unwillingly ignorant. Either way it doesn’t bode well for the credibility “independent researcher”. This dude is a fundamentalist born-again Christian who thinks Jews who don’t renounce Judaism won’t be raptured (he believes in the rapture lmao), that gays are the antichrist and that women’s rights were an idea of the devil. He said that exposing China was a mission given to him by God.

@ercanbrack@lemmy.ml
banned
-915d

By your standard, so is everything else. I’ve seen similar posts on Mastodon, Facebook Twitter, Lemmy, etc. It would be closer to the truth to say that Moderators are human and don’t catch everything, rather than attacking a site for a user’s comments. It does more to show your bias against Reddit than to prove your point. I’m not defending Reddit as much as I’m calling out a double standard.

Muad'Dibber
admin
creator
1715d

wtf are you talking about. Sinophobic “nuke china” posts have been on the front page of reddit every day now for over a year. These comments are able to get hundreds of upvotes precisely because reddit and the rest of silicon valley encourages saber rattling at china.

@ercanbrack@lemmy.ml
banned
-515d

I’m not for saber rattling either, but you sarcastically said that Reddit is not a hate site—meaning you believe it is a hate site. By your own standard (constant upvoted antagonistic comments toward China), nearly all social platforms would be similarly categorized—even Lemmy. So, what is it that makes you hate Reddit more than other sites that experience the exact same thing? I’m trying to understand hate for Reddit, and your lack of hate for other sites that have the same type of people. Look, it’s simple—no matter where you go, you will have people that think differently than you, and yes—many will be hateful. That’s the sad unfortunate truth. I like the Fediverse and its philosophy, and I like what Lemmy is working to achieve in an open source way. But you are going to find hate here too. It is inescapable. But I’m not going to try to blame Lemmy as a platform because of the actions of some people that frequent the site. Neither Lemmy nor Reddit (nor any of the other sites) “Promote” the hate. There is no promotion of hate in the Terms and Conditions. You’ve never heard the site owner promote hate. It is inaccurate to call Reddit a Hate site. Singling out a single site, while ignoring the fact that the same behavior occurs at almost every other site is disingenuous and possibly hypocritical. Sheesh! Why am I having to defend Reddit, here of all places?! I just call’em as I see’em.

bumpsh
-7edit-214d

deleted by creator

@ercanbrack@lemmy.ml
banned
-415d

I’m sorry you feel that way. Some people are unable to accept that not everyone thinks or feels the same as them, and they are unable to have a mature, civil discourse with people who are different. Are you one of those people? I publicly denounce the “Nuke China” hate posts. My argument is not about the post itself that @Maud’Dibber posted, which I agree is vile. My problem is that Reddit is being singled out and called a hate site because some users on the site promote hate. There are people that promote hate on every site—jerks are everywhere. That’s like saying McDonalds’ food chain is a hate restaurant because some vile people happen to eat their food.

The difference is people don’t commit acts of terror because they ate McDonald’s a few times. But people get radicalized into fascism and killing people on Reddit. They also do it on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. They also do it in some online games, because fascists target marginalized kids to commit their massacres for them.

OP singled out Reddit but we’re also singling out Facebook or Twitter when the situation calls for it.

Reddit knows these users exist and have their communities, and it took them until 2017 to start doing anything about it. They’ve been on Reddit since at least 2010. All they do is ban them then, in some enlightened centrist way, also ban progressives for standing up to fascists (under newish rules you can’t post anything violent or insult other people on the site, fascists know this and with all their talk about free speech will brigade your post with reports to get you banned).

But I think you lack the proper perspective to understand why Reddit (and other websites) is so problematic, and I’m humbly hoping to present this new perspective. I understand you believe fascists are acting individually and just kinda hang around on these websites. The reality is actually that they are using these spaces actively as recruitment tools. First they open edgy humour groups and boards, and lure “normies” in. People who are lured in by edgy and dark humour revolving around antisemitism, racism, conspiracy theories are already people who are at risk of going further in the rabbit hole. They may also feel pressure in their everyday life and see these spaces as an outlet, where they can be as vile as they want In these spaces they just make jokes about minorities, and sometimes drop references to their own theories, like say using one of their dogwhistles for the “great replacement”. Interested normies who also spend a lot of time on the server then will ask about these things and others will give them youtube videos or articles to start them out. Once they watch them and start believing in the Jewish Question, the Great Replacement, or other conspiracy theories, it’s almost over. They’ll start hanging around deeper websites such as 8chan, and they’ll keep moving deeper. Reddit has a direct hand in this process, but I don’t see Lemmy having one. I believe when propagandising that it’s more important to focus on volume rather than quality. Just repeating your talking points enough will make people believe them. If you can get people to join your community and stay, at some point down the line they will turn to fascism.

This is so prevalent and rationalised that some well-meaning people are not even able to pick up these spaces are actually fascist recruitment spaces, such as r/consumeproduct or r/frenworld if you were familiar with them back when they existed. So we’re not talking about fascists just kinda hanging out on Reddit and saying stuff here and there about how Chinese people are bugs, we’re talking about a wilful effort to spread their ideology of hate. They also sometimes start invading a community and take it over (because normal people don’t want to hang out with fascists) which is great for luring a ton of people in. Imagine if r/knitting, which has say 50k subscribers, was suddenly throwing around fascist dogwhistles or theory. You cast a wide net and that’s 50 thousand people you can reach out if you do it long enough. And of course then the people that are disgusted by these new users will leave and soon you’ll only have fascists. Though in my experience they mostly create their own subreddits and try to pass them off as normie subs instead of taking over other subs.

If you’re interested I wrote some articles on my cryptpad, they go into how fascists use social media (particularly Reddit).

My problem is that Reddit is being singled out and called a hate site because some users on the site promote hate

Then you also understand we can say houses have evil people in them and so we should abolish homes and shelter because it’s a factor of radicalisation. Or, conversely, not do anything and wait until death because it’s impossible to decide. At some point you have to be able to take a decision, and it’s accepted in communist circles (and even some lib circles bless their hearts) that Reddit is a contributing factor to far-right radicalisation. That they also have the tools to fight against it, but they don’t really care enough to do anything. T_D was banned last year, after they had locked the sub and all went to their own website. And this was years after users kept complaining about T_D and how they participated in the Charlottesville rally and other fascist events.

@ercanbrack@lemmy.ml
banned
-115d

Wow! Thank you for such a long, well thought out comment! I appreciate that you don’t immediately take my comments as an attack, but rather as an attempt on my part to be fair. I admit that I was unaware of those pockets of radicalization in Reddit. I tend to have quite mild subscriptions there for consumption purposes and entertainment.

I tend to stay away from the radical extremes altogether. I recognize that you and Maud’Dibber are pro Communism. I have very moderate (Centrist) views on the conservative/ liberal political scale, which I see that you don’t smile on. My ultimate goal is to see hyper partisanship ended and everyone get along. I know it’s a naive dream, but there it is… 🙂

Well, I mean, we are on lemmygrad which is a communist (marxist-leninist mostly) Lemmy instance 😬

I don’t think it’s naive or utopian to think that people can get along. But I think we will only all get along in communism, which is above all a classless society. There is not much in common between workers (such as I or probably you too) and bosses. Bosses exploit our labour to make a profit (that’s mathematically the only way profit can exist in the first place) and to some extent they realize this. So by the very nature of the capitalist system, it’s impossible for us to get along because why would I let another human being steal the fruits of my labour? And you see this in everyday life when your boss wants you to stay after work and put in some overtime but you kinda want to go home and see your family but you can’t really refuse because you need a job to pay rent and food. These are irreconcilable class contradictions and they are fundamental to capitalism.

That’s also why partisanship exists in the first place. As a worker who sees his revolutionary potential (which is basically understanding my role in our current class society), I am a communist. I couldn’t be a conservative because what would I gain from that? I have no class interest in being one. Conservatives are mostly very rich business owners, and they enjoy success in politics (not just in the United States) because neoliberalism is de facto the current leading economical theory and they can convince voters we need more of it when things start fucking up. They got the money for this, it’s not a problem. They’re also the dominant class, and we see that even social-democrat parties have a bourgeois character, meaning they often act in the interest of business owners. Everything is political, and class interests influence politics in everyone.

We see that class contradictions exist in state society and do not exist in stateless societies (of which there are a few examples today, in some tribes) and so we believe that class (which is decided by your relation to the means of production, it’s not the middle class or upper-middle class) doesn’t have to always exist. And we will finally be free and equal when class society stops existing.

FWIW the thread turns up on frontpage of lemmy.ml too. That is where I am and where I saw it.

Muad'Dibber
admin
creator
114d

It doesn’t. The default view is local, not all, since most servers want their front page to be only their curated content.

@ercanbrack@lemmy.ml
banned
014d

“Well, I mean, we are on lemmygrad which is a communist (marxist-leninist mostly) Lemmy instance 😬”

Hehe! Fair enough. I’m new (to the whole Fediverse) and hadn’t even subscribed to any groups yet. I think I just saw the OP’s post on the main page because I had “All” instead of “Subscribed”. I know that there is a lot of crap on Reddit (as well as nearly every other social site), and felt that Reddit was being singled out (which I felt was unfair). I don’t think I’m actually on Lemmygrad, but I was able to see the post on the main page. 🙂 I don’t know—I’m just trying to get things figured out. 🙂

Muad'Dibber
admin
creator
415d

that Reddit is being singled out and called a hate site because some users on the site promote hate.

And we’ve shown you that reddit not only doesn’t moderate sinophobia, it encourages it.

That’s like saying McDonalds’ food chain is a hate restaurant because some vile people happen to eat their food.

“Just because Mcdonalds allows the KKK to have organized lunch meetings every saturday, with many people in the restaurant saying africa should be nuked, doesn’t mean its a hate restaurant.”

@ercanbrack@lemmy.ml
banned
-315d

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I have seen no evidence that Reddit encourages the hate. No one should be nuked, and hate is unfortunate in any sense, but I see both entities as service providers. Maybe it’s because I don’t like censorship (even if it is someone spewing hate at me). 😐

Muad'Dibber
admin
creator
515d

Should the KKK be allowed to organize? Or should they be silenced? Same question for orientalists.

@ercanbrack@lemmy.ml
banned
-614d

Good question. It’s not an easy answer for me. To me, it’s the same if they meet online or in a brick and mortar location. One can radicalize another at either location. I’d say, that one has to draw the line somewhere before it gets too dangerous—before it becomes domestic terrorism. I’d say that should go for all people.

Muad'Dibber
admin
creator
714d

wtf is wrong with you, why is banning the KKK not an “easy answer” for you? Any answer that isn’t " fuck no the KKK needs to be wiped off the face of the earth" has something seriously wrong with them.

@ercanbrack@lemmy.ml
banned
-4edit-214d

removed by mod

@Suckingdicksince90
7edit-214d

fascists want to wipe out other humans. How is it hypocritical to advocate for violence on violent people?

Reeducation is more ideal but not always possible.

@ercanbrack@lemmy.ml
banned
-414d

Advocating violence on violent people means you are violent, regardless of the reason.

Violence is a tool like any other, and it has not disappeared or been replaced. It’s still very much alive, it’s just that the state has a monopoly on violence (among other things) and so they’re the only ones who can prescribe it. A police officer can beat you up all they want and you’ll have to say thank you at the end. But if you strike back, they’ll murder you. Likewise, they can hit someone who is resisting arrest but you are not allowed to hit someone that committed a crime against you (barring very specific cases).

The police is violent against people who are minding their own business every day. The USA and NATO is causing never-ending conflicts and they are violent every day too. Violence is all around us, but our governments are trying to make it seem like it’s a tool for uncivilised people. We are so overprotected in our capitalist strongholds (which is not a bad thing, but it’s very privileged and not the reality for most of the world) that we are sheltered from violence and rarely see it in action.

Was the violence against feudal lords wrong too? Were proto-capitalists violent people too when, after enduring repression from monarchs (for example the various massacres committed against Protestants, who were represented by the working class and emerging bourgeois class, at the hands of Catholics, the old order, represented by the Vatican and followed by Kings and lords). Was it bad when they decided to do the French or American revolution and kill their enemies? Did that make them bad people inherently, or was the violence legitimate in this case?

We don’t want to be violent people. If I could march to parliament today, say “we are now a socialist country” and they instantly disbanded and gave my party power, I would. Everyone would. But they will never, because we represent the opposite of their class interests. They make money owning private property, and they make a shitton of it. We want to prevent them from making so much money, we want them to become workers like everyone else. So they won’t just disband and give us power, and that’s why a revolution is necessary. If you study history, you will find all major changes in society happened after revolutions. We destroyed feudalism and replaced it with capitalism through revolutions. And so did feudalism transform slave societies (ancient Rome for one) with violence.

Violence has a context, and not all violence is the same. Violence against a helpless child is not the same as being violent against the abuser to protect the child.

It’s the same with fascists. We don’t want to kill fascists. But they certainly want to kill us. And believe me, I’ve seen them. They have nothing to lose because they are overall very maladjusted people who don’t fit in society. If they could get you alone in a dark alley they would murder you. Or maybe they’ll just beat you up within an inch of your life. It’s hard to say.

@Suckingdicksince90
5edit-214d

I guess I’m violent then, don’t see why its wrong though.

Fascists are horrible people. I know a few of them; horrible people racist, sexist, Islamophobic monsters. They would kill me if they could get away with it I’ve no problem with wanting death or violence on them.

Shit fascists say
!shitfascistssay

    Documenting the bullshit that neofascists say and do. Mostly stupid shit.

    • 0 users online
    • 1 user / day
    • 2 users / week
    • 24 users / month
    • 42 users / 6 months
    • 309 subscribers
    • 96 Posts
    • 231 Comments
    • Discussion
    • Modlog