Since Wagner is the group involved, I will ask here instead of making a new thread asking. But are there any good articles about Wagner and what they are? I like most people in the US have been shown pictures and read/listened to various news/media outlets showing them to be Russia’s version of Azov (the pics show them with Nazi/pro-fascist flags/symbols). But given that there are so many anti-fascist communists in the Donbas that are fighting especially hard in order to destroy Azov and other open fascists. I try to take information I see coming from the pro-Ukraine and pro-Russian sides of the media and try to see which things are normal propaganda expected from different sides of any war. But shit seems to be so fucking layered with active disinformation from both sides that it makes it impossible to trust anything. I support the states of the Donbas region being able to be their own thing if they want. I also very much agree that pro-fascist orgs are growing and shouldn’t be just hand-waved away as nothing. I think that Russia isn’t some great hero given their own issues with corruption and powerful oligarchs (just like I don’t think the US has any business to act like it should be the global police or setter of standards). Both the US/Ukraine/NATO and Russian sides are very well versed in painting things how they want in order to seed informational chaos.
Twitter thread debunks Wagner using Bellingcat’s (CIA sponsored outlet) report. The only claim to Wagner having neo Nazis is a picture of a man with swastika tattoos that looks similar to a man named Utkin who supposedly works for a “Wagner” PMC.
“Wagner” is essentially a CIA shorthand to Russian mercenary groups. The same way Al-Qaeda was a CIA shorthand for their Islamic shock troops in Asia. Wagner came about as a counter to the neo Nazis the US used to overthrow Ukraine and invade Donbas. When people started exposing that Ukraine was using Nazis, Wagner was created to muddy the moral waters, because “Russia has neo Nazis too!” Sure, most white countries do, but they don’t come close to state power (or paralegal power for that matter).
Wagner, which is now an umbrella term for Russian mercs in general, is a big thorn in the side of Washington because they’ve been effective at defending the Donbas and stopping ISIS in Syria. Some Russian mercs have taken ownership over the name and refer to themselves with it, unofficially.
I’ve seen Russian state media openly state something like “Wagner Group was essential in the liberation of Soledar” in their news media (RIA Novosti, Sputnik and TASS), so I think they are very real indeed
But real in what sense? There is no official group called Wagner PMC. Does Russia use mercenaries that are referred to as Wagners though? Yes. It’s like you didn’t even read the comment you’re responding to.
Thanks for the links! I have definitely seen the pic(s) of the person with swastika that was making the rounds early in the conflict. Given how much the stated mission is to de-Nazi-fy the Donbas and Ukraine, it would be very bad if Russia and/or the (at the time) new republics were to be openly fighting Nazis with other Nazis (though far-right/fascist groups are more than willing to fight their peers in other nations). Especially since they knew that the western nations and media would zero in on them to add to discrediting the stated goals. It would be great optics for Russia/Donbas to make it a point to publicly drop anyone that dare claim to be on the “pro-Russia” side while sporting Nazi/fascist tattoos or paraphernalia. Though I also guess the “pro-Ukraine no matter what” outlets would then just claim that it was fake and that the ones getting dealt with were random Ukraine citizens used for show trials (while then bringing up the purges under Stalin). Even with proof it would be twisted and mixed up to make it impossible to tell unless you were literally able to be there to see it all while being in multiple places at the same time.
I won’t link it because we apparently don’t like that sub here (?), but there is a thread about them on Dongistan sub.
I remember UA propaganda claimed they are doing zombie like human wave attacks while pumped on drugs and have 40000 KIA (!) by now, while in reality they have maybe 400 (so that seems like projection). Apparently they have super strict discipline to completely avoid any private contacts with civilians in the warzone.
Everything in mainstream about them seems highly suspicious since they are the target of concentrated whataboutism propaganda painting them as some kind of nazi group to make libs bothside them with Azov, but there is no proof whasoever for that except that one pic of guy with swastikas that is supposedly their member, but even if real, the comparison to hundreds pics of nazi Ukrainians is so stark even the twitter crowd is not buying it.
Kaffe is most likely right that this is not one huge mercenary group, but all of them. They are also not really a mercenaries in classical sense of the word, just a front for Russia to unoficially gets boots on the ground, exactly like USA taught them to do.
I’ll look around to see about the sub (is it a Reddit or Lemmy sub?). Thanks for input on this stuff. The whole thing is just so mixed together and various outlets are doing the same things they did after 9/11 and the build-up to Iraq in the US. Everyone is trying to discredit anything that doesn’t safely fit the various narratives and trying to be seen as the mouthpieces of history so they can write their “brave coverage” books like always. If we keep the pro-war hype-train going faster and faster with the breaks removed. Then there won’t be a world left or people to read those masturbatory books.
Since Wagner is the group involved, I will ask here instead of making a new thread asking. But are there any good articles about Wagner and what they are? I like most people in the US have been shown pictures and read/listened to various news/media outlets showing them to be Russia’s version of Azov (the pics show them with Nazi/pro-fascist flags/symbols). But given that there are so many anti-fascist communists in the Donbas that are fighting especially hard in order to destroy Azov and other open fascists. I try to take information I see coming from the pro-Ukraine and pro-Russian sides of the media and try to see which things are normal propaganda expected from different sides of any war. But shit seems to be so fucking layered with active disinformation from both sides that it makes it impossible to trust anything. I support the states of the Donbas region being able to be their own thing if they want. I also very much agree that pro-fascist orgs are growing and shouldn’t be just hand-waved away as nothing. I think that Russia isn’t some great hero given their own issues with corruption and powerful oligarchs (just like I don’t think the US has any business to act like it should be the global police or setter of standards). Both the US/Ukraine/NATO and Russian sides are very well versed in painting things how they want in order to seed informational chaos.
Bourgeois source: Wagner doesn’t exist
Twitter thread debunks Wagner using Bellingcat’s (CIA sponsored outlet) report. The only claim to Wagner having neo Nazis is a picture of a man with swastika tattoos that looks similar to a man named Utkin who supposedly works for a “Wagner” PMC.
“Wagner” is essentially a CIA shorthand to Russian mercenary groups. The same way Al-Qaeda was a CIA shorthand for their Islamic shock troops in Asia. Wagner came about as a counter to the neo Nazis the US used to overthrow Ukraine and invade Donbas. When people started exposing that Ukraine was using Nazis, Wagner was created to muddy the moral waters, because “Russia has neo Nazis too!” Sure, most white countries do, but they don’t come close to state power (or paralegal power for that matter).
Wagner, which is now an umbrella term for Russian mercs in general, is a big thorn in the side of Washington because they’ve been effective at defending the Donbas and stopping ISIS in Syria. Some Russian mercs have taken ownership over the name and refer to themselves with it, unofficially.
I’ve seen Russian state media openly state something like “Wagner Group was essential in the liberation of Soledar” in their news media (RIA Novosti, Sputnik and TASS), so I think they are very real indeed
But real in what sense? There is no official group called Wagner PMC. Does Russia use mercenaries that are referred to as Wagners though? Yes. It’s like you didn’t even read the comment you’re responding to.
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Thanks for the links! I have definitely seen the pic(s) of the person with swastika that was making the rounds early in the conflict. Given how much the stated mission is to de-Nazi-fy the Donbas and Ukraine, it would be very bad if Russia and/or the (at the time) new republics were to be openly fighting Nazis with other Nazis (though far-right/fascist groups are more than willing to fight their peers in other nations). Especially since they knew that the western nations and media would zero in on them to add to discrediting the stated goals. It would be great optics for Russia/Donbas to make it a point to publicly drop anyone that dare claim to be on the “pro-Russia” side while sporting Nazi/fascist tattoos or paraphernalia. Though I also guess the “pro-Ukraine no matter what” outlets would then just claim that it was fake and that the ones getting dealt with were random Ukraine citizens used for show trials (while then bringing up the purges under Stalin). Even with proof it would be twisted and mixed up to make it impossible to tell unless you were literally able to be there to see it all while being in multiple places at the same time.
A Twitter link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on Nitter, which is a Twitter frontend that protects your privacy.
I won’t link it because we apparently don’t like that sub here (?), but there is a thread about them on Dongistan sub.
I remember UA propaganda claimed they are doing zombie like human wave attacks while pumped on drugs and have 40000 KIA (!) by now, while in reality they have maybe 400 (so that seems like projection). Apparently they have super strict discipline to completely avoid any private contacts with civilians in the warzone.
Everything in mainstream about them seems highly suspicious since they are the target of concentrated whataboutism propaganda painting them as some kind of nazi group to make libs bothside them with Azov, but there is no proof whasoever for that except that one pic of guy with swastikas that is supposedly their member, but even if real, the comparison to hundreds pics of nazi Ukrainians is so stark even the twitter crowd is not buying it.
Kaffe is most likely right that this is not one huge mercenary group, but all of them. They are also not really a mercenaries in classical sense of the word, just a front for Russia to unoficially gets boots on the ground, exactly like USA taught them to do.
I’ll look around to see about the sub (is it a Reddit or Lemmy sub?). Thanks for input on this stuff. The whole thing is just so mixed together and various outlets are doing the same things they did after 9/11 and the build-up to Iraq in the US. Everyone is trying to discredit anything that doesn’t safely fit the various narratives and trying to be seen as the mouthpieces of history so they can write their “brave coverage” books like always. If we keep the pro-war hype-train going faster and faster with the breaks removed. Then there won’t be a world left or people to read those masturbatory books.
It’s Reddit sub