But even if the “true ml” needs to be international, just wanting an ml goverment first on your home region is good enough, it was what the USSR did, what china is doing now. We cant force the revolution on other countries, its literally and scientifically impossible, an country embrace the revolution when they want and when they need, we can support it when it happens, but the “socialism on one country” view still is correct at the beggining of an socialist country. If we cant succesfully realise an revolution on our own countries, how can we do this on other countries? Thats why pan-movements exist, baathism is pan arabic and socialist, you could argue it is not “true ml” because its mainly focused on arabic liberation, but does it make the movement less socialist? Just having an socialist arabic union would already be great, if all those countries standed up to unite themselves under communism, it would be great. Its not like we could even think of artificially creating revolutions on other countries.
What i am saying here is, maupin and haz are not wrong for wanting mainly an american revolution, because right now its the best they can do, it would not change anything if they openly stated that they want other countries to also have an revolution, it doesnt depend on them. What does matter would be if they would support an revolution on other countries WHEN it happens, and if they support the existing AES countries, then they would support future AES countries.
I feel that we’re not having the same conversation. Saying that Marxism-Leninism is internationalist isn’t saying it’s the same as Trotskyism or Ultra. I’m not saying or hinting at saying that Socialism in one country is illegitimate. I’m not saying we should be Third-Worldist. Though I think naturally socialism is more likely to develop in the colonized world at the periphery of empire, I think that they will have to fight their own revolutions and form their own governments according to their own national will, just as we have to do the same within our own nations. They don’t need us, but we do need them to weaken the empire enough for us to stand a chance.
Because there is confusion I’d like to try and clarify what’s meant by Internationalism. Internationalism is international proletarian solidarity. Solidarity means that what harms one of us harms us all. At the most local level, it means that if the person I work with is injured or cheated I take it as personally as if it was me who was injured or cheated. At the national level it means that if it happened to someone I never met in another part of the country, I take it as personally as if it was me. Internationally it means that if my country is committing injuries abroad I take it the same as if they were doing it to me. International Solidarity is to view the workers of the world with equal respect.
It seems that you think I meant to say that the problem with patriotic socialism is that they want to focus on American Socialism. Nobody has a problem with Americans focusing on American Socialism. If we could do that, it would be a benefit to us and the entire world. Every Socialist movement in the US took that position. Everybody here wants Americans to focus on American Socialism.
What they don’t want us to do is pretend as much while supporting US imperialism. We shouldn’t associate ourselves with the empire. We shouldn’t protect them by denying their guilt. We shouldn’t endow them with benevolence.
If you’re a socialist, and you understand what Marxism-Leninsism is then why are you adding to socialism something superfluous? Is Marxism-Leninism not patriotic enough? Do you feel it’s missing something that more patriotism would mend? What is the quality of this patriotism? If Marxism-Leninism sees patriotism as national proletarian solidarity specifically opposed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, your amendment must be trying to add something beyond that.
What you’re saying you want is fine and good. That’s been the standard aim for the last century and a half. What is your patriotism? What is your nationalism? It seems to me, as I’ve already said the comment you’re responding to, that your conception of patriotism is bourgeois patriotism.
Your patriotism is simply this; that the nation is inherently good. While it has made mistakes, so have other nations. Then you follow with the promotion of the standard bourgeois national myth. Sure the United States does bad things, you say, but it’s really not that bad. Sure the United States has a questionable history, you say, but so do other countries.
There’s a problem here that needs to be addressed if you have the time hear it. You’re attempting to compromise socialism in order to make it more acceptable to a larger audience. America has a terrible history of genocide and slavery. The proper way to address the history is to acknowledge them and use them to identify the true nature of the bourgeoisie. The problem with racial identity is that it obscures the bourgeoisie as whiteness. It says to the white man that he should associate himself with the ruling class. When the white man reads history he’s taught to associate himself with the master class.
You, as a patriotic socialist, hear that message and rightly think to yourself that you should have no part in the blame. That’s true. You shouldn’t, but you were never the master class. Your association with it is false. It is of false consciousness. You say to yourself, you don’t want to take the blame, but you’ve already taken the guilt by attempting to erase it. We don’t want you to feel guilty about the crimes of the bourgeoisie. We want you to place the guilt where it belongs in order to help identify the true nature of the bourgeoisie as slaving class, as a genocidal class. We don’t want you to take on the guilt, but we don’t want you to erase theirs. We want you to associate yourself with the slave and with the Indian. That is what Internationalism means.
Oh and to add, no i dont think my country is “inehently good” quite the opposite, its fucking awfull; no jobs, gerbage goverment, filled to the top with reactionaries, classic capitalistic shithole. My patriotism is; i love my country, but i hate the state that capitalism has let her, so i want to install socialism so it can become an trully good country. Thats it, the goverment right now can fuck off, the elite can fuck off, they dont represent the people, they dont deserve to represent my country, only the brasillian people can represent the country, not an artificial burgeoise that exists by explorating and destroying our country.
And talking about the racial issues part, my country is worse then the US, we dont have an “racial majority” believe it or not, neither we have an cultural majority, my countrie is one of the most diverses in the world, there is people from literally everywhere, and unless you are an immigrant that lives on a small village with only other immigrants, you cant be “pure” here, its impossible. Thats why nazi bullshit failed here, even after we haved the second biggest nazi party, how can you create an elitist idea on a country that doesnt even have an idea of what the majority is? This creates another problem, while we dont say we are an people of white people, with white people culture, and with a single culture, the country created this mentality on the people, our material conditions created rascism, because blacks, indians, mixed people and other minoritys have aways been poor and abused, because they where abused, enslaved or poorer then the white people more then a hundred years ago, and most of them still are, because our society still think that this is normal, we still live with an mentality that has not yet leaved the past, and i dont blame the people, this is what 22 years of neoliberal reactionary dictatorship did to us, without an goverment that did anything meaningfull to fix it after. Only socialism will fix our country,
In addendum, above I said “true socialism.” That was worded poorly. I didn’t mean to say “the true socialism.” I meant to say “the one true socialism.” My post two posts up should have read,
I’m not going to denounce patriotic socialism, but I’m not going to call it ‘the one true socialism’
The original post, the meme, seemed to me to be saying the patriot socialism was the only proper way. I meant to say that I didn’t think they were so wrong as to be considered a fake movement. I also didn’t think that they were so correct as to be considered the only way to think.
Because it was poorly worded I think what I was trying to say didn’t properly come across.
I’d add one more thing:
Something are more culturally heavy than other things. This subject is one. There are similarities between the Americas. There are also major differences. As there are discussions we can have about Brazil that we can have with each other in broad terms. There are ideological signatures and references in language that I would miss. I didn’t grow up in Brazil. I would not understand or begin to see those things because I wasn’t there to know them. This isn’t a conversation to have with broad strokes. It’s referential.
That’s why I assumed you were American. It’s a very American thing. It’s iconography is very much targeting very particular American notions. I referred to the national myth a few times with the assumption you were aware of it.
I don’t know the stories Brazilians tell about themselves. I don’t know how your national identity is built into you from childhood up.
What I’m trying to say is that this would not be an easy discussion to have with you.
I agree, sorry for being overlly angry at you, bad communication and misinformation can ruin an online conversation, thats my biggest problem with online conversations compared to irl ones. Sorry again for sounding rude, hope we can have an better conversation in the future without all of the patsoc dog whistling and badly word sentences. Hope you have an good day!
If you’re a socialist, and you understand what Marxism-Leninsism is then why are you adding to socialism something superfluous? Is Marxism-Leninism not patriotic enough?
I am not a “patsoc”, i am not even american, you are putting words in my mouth, i hate the US with every single piece of my body, i despise it as an country, i despise its history, i despise everything it stands as an country. BUT i dont want to see it destroyed, even if i hate it, because it would be hypocritical. It would be the same as if Lenin wanted to destroy the Russian empire instead of turning it socialist because it was an imperialist country, this is what anarchists want, we want to fix said country.
What really bothers me is people treating the US as an special country. No its fucking not, please anybody reading this, stop saying its an “uniquely evil country” its not, its just more of the same imperialist bullshit wanting to dominate the world and failing miserably, spain tried it, the UK tried it, germany tried it, italy tried it, france tried it, japan tried it, dozens and dozens of empires tried to dominate everything around them, and they aways failed, with not a single exception. The US is just the most modern empire, nothing more then that, we should treat it on the same way the soviets treated Nazi germany before and after the war, and talking about Nazi germany, we need to remember that on an matter of year the soviets transformed an country that was ruled for 22 years by the most disgusting and cruel regime to ever exist at the time, that passed through the most brutal war in history, on an socialist country.
Why is the US “more evil” then other countries? People that talk about just balkanizing the US dont want to turn it into a socialist country, they just want to destroy it, and thats wrong. And you people are using the example of giving land back to the indians (with i agree with) but you people need to understand: almost the entire native population on the entire continent is dead, the US almost completelly exterminated them, we cant at best create indian republics or an indian federation with the population that still exist, but we literally cant give entire states to make entire countries just for indians, because there is not enough indians to fill an capital of an state of the US. One thing its Israel, an european-american colony that has succeded in stealing of most of the land of the native palestinians, the difference is; the palestinians are still the majority, while the colonizers are the minority, this is what we call an apartheid state. We can still give the land back to the palestinians and kick out the newer colonizers that are only going there because its an apartheid, but we cant kick out the entire american population from every single US state to give it to the indians, because the indians are just an small minority now.
And just to remember, the US is as much of a colony as every other latin american country, i am from brasil, and i can confirm we killed and stole the land of as much indians as the US did, and so did every other latin american country, we are not innocent, so what now? You also wants to balkanize and destroy my country? Cut it into a bunch of states only to give it to an percentage of the population that is barelly more then half a million? Because i dont, i want to create an country that doesnt divide people by race nor class, an just country where every ethniy and culture are worth the same, where all can work together for an better country.
And going back to Maupin, you people are loving to put things into his mouth and put him in the same bag of a bunch of people he doesnt even say he is a part of, but you dont show any proff of him calling himself a “patsocc”, you dont show proff of him saying that indians should not get any land back, or that black people dont deserve the same rights as white people, or him saying that he aproves anything the US goverment does, want to know what i see this as? Slandering, the same thing liberals and the elite love to say about every communist or communist leader; that they are rascist, homophobic, evil, dictators, all of the cartoon vilain stuff, without showing any actual proff. I might not agree with everything he says, but what you people are doing with him is low, very fucking low, you are all just repeating a bunch of twitter drama to create conflict where it doesnt exist. And your “response” to me sounds extremelly arrogant, you are asuming i am an patsoc AND an american with no proff whatsowhever, putting words in my mouth, and diffamating an person without showing any proff.
Don’t be too upset with me. If I put words in your mouth it was by mistake; but look here, you are doing the same for me. You are telling me I want to balkanize the United States. I don’t want to do that. You are telling me I want to surrender the country to the tribes and submit to whatever government they prescribe. I don’t even think that’s in the realm of possibility. Anyone actually prescribing that is living in their heads. It’s not possible.
It was hard for me to understand if you were disputing something or trying to make an addition. I wasn’t trying to be caustic or strawman you or Caleb.
I don’t really pay great attention to Caleb. I don’t have any major complaints to issue against him. I used to pay greater attention to Jackson Hinckle. The above statements as to what Patriotic Socialists believe were based directly from how he expressed it. I’m working on first hand experience based off of what he said with his own mouth. I’m not basing my understanding of Patriotic Socialism on hear-say.
Likewise I’ve listened to Haz. I have a particularly low opinion of the man. Of those two. I don’t think either of them are too well read. Haz especially is more into false machismo and theater than Marxist-Leninist theory. That’s my opinion. Maybe you like him, maybe you don’t. The topic isn’t worth my time arguing over.
I say only as much to express that my opinions are not merely hear-say. What I say and what I think regarding them comes from the horse’s mouth.
As far a Caleb goes. I’ve heard him on and off for many years. I think he’s right about some of his criticisms. My complaints about him are not the same as many other people’s. I have my own mind. For instance, I think individual blame should remain with the actors. I don’t think the bourgeoisie are victims of capitalism, forced into role. I feel that when Caleb explains the history and development of capitalism he is too apologetic and offers too great a pardon. It’s a mild complaint though isn’t it? I think Caleb is well read. I think he knows what he’s talking about. I also think that he’s a little too toothless. I think his little experiment with Patriotic Socialism is an expression of that obsequiousness. It’s not a big complaint though. I don’t like, I said why I don’t like it above; however, that doesn’t mean I have a negative opinion of him.
A lot of people like Wolffe. I don’t. I think he’s a reformist. As a socialist I have a low opinion of the guy. He has his niche. I think it’s well he fills it. Such is life. So it goes.
I’m hearing what you’re saying. I think there’s a lot of valuable discussion to be had on this or that. There’s points of contention. There’s points of agreement. I’m not trying to bother you or get into some kind of fight. It takes a lot time writing something up, wording it correctly. If there’s nothing gained, if it’s just going to be an irritant then it isn’t worth the time it takes.
Oof, sorry for the rant, the way i readed it sounded a lot like you where being an arrogant person, putting things on my mouth i dont even agree with. This is what lack of communication does to a conversation, sorry for sounding agressive, but i am starting to get really angry at everyone here using “patsoc” as some kind of dog wistle. It remembers me of how kruschev and revisionists used the word “stalinist” or “tankie” on people that where against their revisionist bs. I think we should stop using it all together, relax, review what these words are actually meaning, show actual proff and get some actual info on those people who call themselves “patsocs”, otherwise this comment section is just turning into an shit spyral where one side is just closing their ears, screeching “patsoc” and menacing bans, and the other side cant even express their opinion without getting buried under downvotes and angry comments (btw those people downvoting everything comrades PolandAsAnStateofMind and SaddamHussain are saying are cowards, they dont know anything about “patsocs” they dont know anything about what this situation is all about, but they are still just showing blind hate towards them).
But even if the “true ml” needs to be international, just wanting an ml goverment first on your home region is good enough, it was what the USSR did, what china is doing now. We cant force the revolution on other countries, its literally and scientifically impossible, an country embrace the revolution when they want and when they need, we can support it when it happens, but the “socialism on one country” view still is correct at the beggining of an socialist country. If we cant succesfully realise an revolution on our own countries, how can we do this on other countries? Thats why pan-movements exist, baathism is pan arabic and socialist, you could argue it is not “true ml” because its mainly focused on arabic liberation, but does it make the movement less socialist? Just having an socialist arabic union would already be great, if all those countries standed up to unite themselves under communism, it would be great. Its not like we could even think of artificially creating revolutions on other countries.
What i am saying here is, maupin and haz are not wrong for wanting mainly an american revolution, because right now its the best they can do, it would not change anything if they openly stated that they want other countries to also have an revolution, it doesnt depend on them. What does matter would be if they would support an revolution on other countries WHEN it happens, and if they support the existing AES countries, then they would support future AES countries.
I feel that we’re not having the same conversation. Saying that Marxism-Leninism is internationalist isn’t saying it’s the same as Trotskyism or Ultra. I’m not saying or hinting at saying that Socialism in one country is illegitimate. I’m not saying we should be Third-Worldist. Though I think naturally socialism is more likely to develop in the colonized world at the periphery of empire, I think that they will have to fight their own revolutions and form their own governments according to their own national will, just as we have to do the same within our own nations. They don’t need us, but we do need them to weaken the empire enough for us to stand a chance.
Because there is confusion I’d like to try and clarify what’s meant by Internationalism. Internationalism is international proletarian solidarity. Solidarity means that what harms one of us harms us all. At the most local level, it means that if the person I work with is injured or cheated I take it as personally as if it was me who was injured or cheated. At the national level it means that if it happened to someone I never met in another part of the country, I take it as personally as if it was me. Internationally it means that if my country is committing injuries abroad I take it the same as if they were doing it to me. International Solidarity is to view the workers of the world with equal respect.
It seems that you think I meant to say that the problem with patriotic socialism is that they want to focus on American Socialism. Nobody has a problem with Americans focusing on American Socialism. If we could do that, it would be a benefit to us and the entire world. Every Socialist movement in the US took that position. Everybody here wants Americans to focus on American Socialism.
What they don’t want us to do is pretend as much while supporting US imperialism. We shouldn’t associate ourselves with the empire. We shouldn’t protect them by denying their guilt. We shouldn’t endow them with benevolence.
If you’re a socialist, and you understand what Marxism-Leninsism is then why are you adding to socialism something superfluous? Is Marxism-Leninism not patriotic enough? Do you feel it’s missing something that more patriotism would mend? What is the quality of this patriotism? If Marxism-Leninism sees patriotism as national proletarian solidarity specifically opposed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, your amendment must be trying to add something beyond that.
What you’re saying you want is fine and good. That’s been the standard aim for the last century and a half. What is your patriotism? What is your nationalism? It seems to me, as I’ve already said the comment you’re responding to, that your conception of patriotism is bourgeois patriotism.
Your patriotism is simply this; that the nation is inherently good. While it has made mistakes, so have other nations. Then you follow with the promotion of the standard bourgeois national myth. Sure the United States does bad things, you say, but it’s really not that bad. Sure the United States has a questionable history, you say, but so do other countries.
There’s a problem here that needs to be addressed if you have the time hear it. You’re attempting to compromise socialism in order to make it more acceptable to a larger audience. America has a terrible history of genocide and slavery. The proper way to address the history is to acknowledge them and use them to identify the true nature of the bourgeoisie. The problem with racial identity is that it obscures the bourgeoisie as whiteness. It says to the white man that he should associate himself with the ruling class. When the white man reads history he’s taught to associate himself with the master class.
You, as a patriotic socialist, hear that message and rightly think to yourself that you should have no part in the blame. That’s true. You shouldn’t, but you were never the master class. Your association with it is false. It is of false consciousness. You say to yourself, you don’t want to take the blame, but you’ve already taken the guilt by attempting to erase it. We don’t want you to feel guilty about the crimes of the bourgeoisie. We want you to place the guilt where it belongs in order to help identify the true nature of the bourgeoisie as slaving class, as a genocidal class. We don’t want you to take on the guilt, but we don’t want you to erase theirs. We want you to associate yourself with the slave and with the Indian. That is what Internationalism means.
Oh and to add, no i dont think my country is “inehently good” quite the opposite, its fucking awfull; no jobs, gerbage goverment, filled to the top with reactionaries, classic capitalistic shithole. My patriotism is; i love my country, but i hate the state that capitalism has let her, so i want to install socialism so it can become an trully good country. Thats it, the goverment right now can fuck off, the elite can fuck off, they dont represent the people, they dont deserve to represent my country, only the brasillian people can represent the country, not an artificial burgeoise that exists by explorating and destroying our country.
And talking about the racial issues part, my country is worse then the US, we dont have an “racial majority” believe it or not, neither we have an cultural majority, my countrie is one of the most diverses in the world, there is people from literally everywhere, and unless you are an immigrant that lives on a small village with only other immigrants, you cant be “pure” here, its impossible. Thats why nazi bullshit failed here, even after we haved the second biggest nazi party, how can you create an elitist idea on a country that doesnt even have an idea of what the majority is? This creates another problem, while we dont say we are an people of white people, with white people culture, and with a single culture, the country created this mentality on the people, our material conditions created rascism, because blacks, indians, mixed people and other minoritys have aways been poor and abused, because they where abused, enslaved or poorer then the white people more then a hundred years ago, and most of them still are, because our society still think that this is normal, we still live with an mentality that has not yet leaved the past, and i dont blame the people, this is what 22 years of neoliberal reactionary dictatorship did to us, without an goverment that did anything meaningfull to fix it after. Only socialism will fix our country,
In addendum, above I said “true socialism.” That was worded poorly. I didn’t mean to say “the true socialism.” I meant to say “the one true socialism.” My post two posts up should have read,
The original post, the meme, seemed to me to be saying the patriot socialism was the only proper way. I meant to say that I didn’t think they were so wrong as to be considered a fake movement. I also didn’t think that they were so correct as to be considered the only way to think.
Because it was poorly worded I think what I was trying to say didn’t properly come across.
I’d add one more thing:
Something are more culturally heavy than other things. This subject is one. There are similarities between the Americas. There are also major differences. As there are discussions we can have about Brazil that we can have with each other in broad terms. There are ideological signatures and references in language that I would miss. I didn’t grow up in Brazil. I would not understand or begin to see those things because I wasn’t there to know them. This isn’t a conversation to have with broad strokes. It’s referential.
That’s why I assumed you were American. It’s a very American thing. It’s iconography is very much targeting very particular American notions. I referred to the national myth a few times with the assumption you were aware of it.
I don’t know the stories Brazilians tell about themselves. I don’t know how your national identity is built into you from childhood up.
What I’m trying to say is that this would not be an easy discussion to have with you.
I agree, sorry for being overlly angry at you, bad communication and misinformation can ruin an online conversation, thats my biggest problem with online conversations compared to irl ones. Sorry again for sounding rude, hope we can have an better conversation in the future without all of the patsoc dog whistling and badly word sentences. Hope you have an good day!
Chef’s Kiss
I am not a “patsoc”, i am not even american, you are putting words in my mouth, i hate the US with every single piece of my body, i despise it as an country, i despise its history, i despise everything it stands as an country. BUT i dont want to see it destroyed, even if i hate it, because it would be hypocritical. It would be the same as if Lenin wanted to destroy the Russian empire instead of turning it socialist because it was an imperialist country, this is what anarchists want, we want to fix said country.
What really bothers me is people treating the US as an special country. No its fucking not, please anybody reading this, stop saying its an “uniquely evil country” its not, its just more of the same imperialist bullshit wanting to dominate the world and failing miserably, spain tried it, the UK tried it, germany tried it, italy tried it, france tried it, japan tried it, dozens and dozens of empires tried to dominate everything around them, and they aways failed, with not a single exception. The US is just the most modern empire, nothing more then that, we should treat it on the same way the soviets treated Nazi germany before and after the war, and talking about Nazi germany, we need to remember that on an matter of year the soviets transformed an country that was ruled for 22 years by the most disgusting and cruel regime to ever exist at the time, that passed through the most brutal war in history, on an socialist country.
Why is the US “more evil” then other countries? People that talk about just balkanizing the US dont want to turn it into a socialist country, they just want to destroy it, and thats wrong. And you people are using the example of giving land back to the indians (with i agree with) but you people need to understand: almost the entire native population on the entire continent is dead, the US almost completelly exterminated them, we cant at best create indian republics or an indian federation with the population that still exist, but we literally cant give entire states to make entire countries just for indians, because there is not enough indians to fill an capital of an state of the US. One thing its Israel, an european-american colony that has succeded in stealing of most of the land of the native palestinians, the difference is; the palestinians are still the majority, while the colonizers are the minority, this is what we call an apartheid state. We can still give the land back to the palestinians and kick out the newer colonizers that are only going there because its an apartheid, but we cant kick out the entire american population from every single US state to give it to the indians, because the indians are just an small minority now.
And just to remember, the US is as much of a colony as every other latin american country, i am from brasil, and i can confirm we killed and stole the land of as much indians as the US did, and so did every other latin american country, we are not innocent, so what now? You also wants to balkanize and destroy my country? Cut it into a bunch of states only to give it to an percentage of the population that is barelly more then half a million? Because i dont, i want to create an country that doesnt divide people by race nor class, an just country where every ethniy and culture are worth the same, where all can work together for an better country.
And going back to Maupin, you people are loving to put things into his mouth and put him in the same bag of a bunch of people he doesnt even say he is a part of, but you dont show any proff of him calling himself a “patsocc”, you dont show proff of him saying that indians should not get any land back, or that black people dont deserve the same rights as white people, or him saying that he aproves anything the US goverment does, want to know what i see this as? Slandering, the same thing liberals and the elite love to say about every communist or communist leader; that they are rascist, homophobic, evil, dictators, all of the cartoon vilain stuff, without showing any actual proff. I might not agree with everything he says, but what you people are doing with him is low, very fucking low, you are all just repeating a bunch of twitter drama to create conflict where it doesnt exist. And your “response” to me sounds extremelly arrogant, you are asuming i am an patsoc AND an american with no proff whatsowhever, putting words in my mouth, and diffamating an person without showing any proff.
Don’t be too upset with me. If I put words in your mouth it was by mistake; but look here, you are doing the same for me. You are telling me I want to balkanize the United States. I don’t want to do that. You are telling me I want to surrender the country to the tribes and submit to whatever government they prescribe. I don’t even think that’s in the realm of possibility. Anyone actually prescribing that is living in their heads. It’s not possible.
It was hard for me to understand if you were disputing something or trying to make an addition. I wasn’t trying to be caustic or strawman you or Caleb.
I don’t really pay great attention to Caleb. I don’t have any major complaints to issue against him. I used to pay greater attention to Jackson Hinckle. The above statements as to what Patriotic Socialists believe were based directly from how he expressed it. I’m working on first hand experience based off of what he said with his own mouth. I’m not basing my understanding of Patriotic Socialism on hear-say.
Likewise I’ve listened to Haz. I have a particularly low opinion of the man. Of those two. I don’t think either of them are too well read. Haz especially is more into false machismo and theater than Marxist-Leninist theory. That’s my opinion. Maybe you like him, maybe you don’t. The topic isn’t worth my time arguing over.
I say only as much to express that my opinions are not merely hear-say. What I say and what I think regarding them comes from the horse’s mouth.
As far a Caleb goes. I’ve heard him on and off for many years. I think he’s right about some of his criticisms. My complaints about him are not the same as many other people’s. I have my own mind. For instance, I think individual blame should remain with the actors. I don’t think the bourgeoisie are victims of capitalism, forced into role. I feel that when Caleb explains the history and development of capitalism he is too apologetic and offers too great a pardon. It’s a mild complaint though isn’t it? I think Caleb is well read. I think he knows what he’s talking about. I also think that he’s a little too toothless. I think his little experiment with Patriotic Socialism is an expression of that obsequiousness. It’s not a big complaint though. I don’t like, I said why I don’t like it above; however, that doesn’t mean I have a negative opinion of him.
A lot of people like Wolffe. I don’t. I think he’s a reformist. As a socialist I have a low opinion of the guy. He has his niche. I think it’s well he fills it. Such is life. So it goes.
I’m hearing what you’re saying. I think there’s a lot of valuable discussion to be had on this or that. There’s points of contention. There’s points of agreement. I’m not trying to bother you or get into some kind of fight. It takes a lot time writing something up, wording it correctly. If there’s nothing gained, if it’s just going to be an irritant then it isn’t worth the time it takes.
Oof, sorry for the rant, the way i readed it sounded a lot like you where being an arrogant person, putting things on my mouth i dont even agree with. This is what lack of communication does to a conversation, sorry for sounding agressive, but i am starting to get really angry at everyone here using “patsoc” as some kind of dog wistle. It remembers me of how kruschev and revisionists used the word “stalinist” or “tankie” on people that where against their revisionist bs. I think we should stop using it all together, relax, review what these words are actually meaning, show actual proff and get some actual info on those people who call themselves “patsocs”, otherwise this comment section is just turning into an shit spyral where one side is just closing their ears, screeching “patsoc” and menacing bans, and the other side cant even express their opinion without getting buried under downvotes and angry comments (btw those people downvoting everything comrades PolandAsAnStateofMind and SaddamHussain are saying are cowards, they dont know anything about “patsocs” they dont know anything about what this situation is all about, but they are still just showing blind hate towards them).