TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) – China’s military sent 103 warplanes toward Taiwan in a 24-hour period in what the island’s defense ministry said Monday was a daily record in recent times.

  • freagle
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    10 months ago

    Part 2:

    Ahh yes, highlighting data made public by the 2020 Chinese census , automatically means I’m working for the state department.

    Just because you regurgitate propaganda doesn’t mean you work for them. I would never accuse you of having the requisite skills to work for the US State Department. You cherry picked data from the 2020 census and repeated a narrative around those isolated facts that fits the Western narrative. It’s not my fault you can’t see through the bullshit.

    I’m guessing your talking about their invasion of Vietnam? The one that had running conflicts until the 90s, the one that is still hampering Sino-Vietnamese relations till today? How is that any different than Tibet, other than Vietnam could actually defend itself?

    If you don’t know the answer to this question, then you don’t really have any business talking about this. Ignorance is not a position that must be respected. Your position is based on ignorance, not research and analysis. In essence, you can’t tell the difference between Vietnam and Tibet because your analysis is based purely on vibes and moralizing. Suffice to say, Han chauvinism regarding Vietnam was based on the idea that China knows best, whereas the TAR is based on the rectification of that idea that national security and foreign policy have wholly different qualities than domestic policy and that autonomous regions are a dialectical unity between the need for national security and the need for cultural autonomy.

    I would have to partially agree with this to a degree, America has always had fascist leanings. But, it’s be a lot more accurate to say that they were emulating Italy.

    No, it wouldn’t. Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf that one of his goals was to bring the American system of apartheid and dominance to the Slavs. It would not be more accurate to say the 3rd Reich was emulating Italy. The 3rd Reich openly studied Jim Crow, American eugenics, frontier and border town strategies, the Indian reservation system, etc. The 3rd Reich literally grew from the Western European project that the USA perfected and helmed. When the 3rd Reich fell, the movement was absorbed back into the USA where it continued to develop.

    My rebuttal to this would be that the CCP also emulated the United States when they switched to a socialized market economy.

    Which again is more vibes than anything else. If you actually read Chinese party publications, 5-year plans, and everything else they publish, you would see that nothing could be further from the truth. China is not emulating the US, they are arranging their economic policies to ensnare Western bourgeoisie. In fact, that phase is nearly over, having successfully convinced the Western bourgeoisie to put their capital into China to develop China beyond the West while simultaneously convincing the West to deindustrialize. There is no equivalent to Mein Kampf in China, nothing that analyzes the American or European system as effective or better or something worth reproducing and advancing. There is nothing similar in China to Japan’s wholesale adoption of the Western imperialism program (though there is that interesting point in Japanese history where they wholesale adopted the Chinese system of social organization and then tailored it to their context).

    Ahh, were bad because you made us be bad… makes more sense when applied to the soviets… not so much when applied to Asia. What American scheme required dismantling in Tibet or any of the autonomous regions?

    Oh boy. I don’t know if we can have this conversation. I’m not really equipped to be your teacher here. Your question, rephrased is “Why did China make autonomous regions and what does it have to do with America?” The first problems is that you see America as the background but America is the foreground, the background is the North Atlantic project of Euro-centric imperialism through racialized capitalism. If you look at the history of the North Atlantic in the Asia-Pacific region, you’re going to see a lot of the things China has done are very closely matched to things that the North Atlantic countries have done. Vietnam was a French colony, and America took the torch from them. The Philippines were occupied by the Spanish, and America took over from them. America turned half of Korea into a wasteland and the other half into a nuclear base, but it took it over from the Japanese who had made Korea a colony. The UK was in India and doing all sorts of anti-communist fuckery at the time but also had spent a century building their imperialism and especially their dominance of China. And then of course you have everything happening in the “Middle East” by the USA, UK, France, and other European imperialists, and that’s yet-another-front through which to isolate, encircle, and destabilize China.

    China isn’t doing anything “bad”. There is no “bad”. The moral framing is a useless one. My sentence was “China’s project necessarily involves the opposition to and dismantling of the American project.” There’s a lot to understand from that. First, when China pushes the USA, UK, and Japan out of their space, it’s not imperialism, it’s anti-imperialism. Second, what China is doing is explicitly NOT replicating what the West did and then tuning it to meet their context. What China is doing is finding a path that involves exactly not replicating the colonialist and imperialist structures that are going to destroy the West because China doesn’t want to be destroyed like the West is being destroyed. The fact that you think I was saying “China is bad because other people made them bad” shows you have no idea what China is actually doing.

    Again, my point was that we should develop criticism that are not automatically juxtaposed to western imperialism… and you just can’t allow it.

    You can’t develop self crit from a position of abject ignorance. Stop trying to figure out how to be morally superior by engaging in criticism of the fantasy China that you have not investigated at all and start trying to develop criticism of China by studying it thoroughly and with intellectual honesty. There are plenty of things to criticize China for from a Marxist perspective. You haven’t found a single one of those things.

    • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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      10 months ago

      You cherry picked data from the 2020 census and repeated a narrative around those isolated facts that fits the Western narrative. It’s not my fault you can’t see through the bullshit.

      Did you want me to just cite the entire census? Of course I picked data that supported my argument, that’s how debate works… now it is your job to rebuttal my argument, which isnt just throwing ad hominems btw.

      you don’t know the answer to this question, then you don’t really have any business talking about this. Ignorance is not a position that must be respected.

      Lol, you only specified actions in South East Asia. It’s of my opinion that there are plenty of actions commuted by china in South East Asia that could be interpreted as negative.

      In essence, you can’t tell the difference between Vietnam and Tibet because your analysis is based purely on vibes and moralizing.

      Lol, Tibet is not in South East Asia my dude.

      Suffice to say, Han chauvinism regarding Vietnam was based

      Ahh, okay I was right. You were just being sassy.

      Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf that one of his goals was to bring the American system of apartheid and dominance to the Slavs. It would not be more accurate to say the 3rd Reich was emulating Italy. The 3rd Reich openly studied Jim Crow, American eugenics, frontier and border town strategies, the Indian reservation system, etc. The 3rd Reich literally grew from the Western European project that the USA perfected and helmed. When the 3rd Reich fell, the movement was absorbed back into the USA where it continued to develop.

      Again, I’m not defending America? I agree that he studied and utilized American system of oppression, but the way he organized his economy and structural hierarchy was more influenced by the actions of mousselines Italian fascism.

      Which again is more vibes than anything else. If you actually read Chinese party publications, 5-year plans, and everything else they publish, you would see that nothing could be further from the truth. China is not emulating the US, they are arranging their economic policies to ensnare Western bourgeoisie

      And a lot of people seem to think that utilizing capitalism to destroy capitalism is like trying to put out a house fire by drowning it in gasoline. I think there are some pretty valid criticism laid out in from victory to defeat by Pao-yu Ching.

      There’s a lot to understand from that. First, when China pushes the USA, UK, and Japan out of their space, it’s not imperialism, it’s anti-imperialism.

      Lol, that implies that they have some sort of manifest destiny over territories they’ve never historically controlled… Tibet is their space? You just reiterated yourself without actually explaining how they justified their expansion. That’s unless you are claiming they preemptively expanded their territory to deny possible future western intent.

      China doesn’t want to be destroyed like the West is being destroyed

      Again, you are utilizing an unsubstantiated definition of imperialism that requires the unnecessary prerequisite of a specified type of capitalist intent.

      Stop trying to figure out how to be morally superior by engaging in criticism of the fantasy China that you have not investigated at all and start trying to develop criticism of China by studying it thoroughly and with intellectual honesty.

      My dude, just because we came to different conclusions doesn’t mean I haven’t investigated it at all. I could make the same dramatic claims about the willfull ignorance of obvious human rights violations committed against indigenous populations, but of course it would be justified as Western propaganda.

      There are plenty of things to criticize China for from a Marxist perspective. You haven’t found a single one of those things.

      And they would be? You keep making large sweeping claims and then just using a series of logical fallacies to justify them. You haven’t really expanded on your claims, You’ve just regurgitated party platitudes. It’s like I’m criticizing US foreign policy and you keep utilizing memos from the state department to justify them. The whole point is I don’t believe the state department to be a dependable narrator.

      Have a great one, but I don’t really feel like breaking down anymore logical fallacies. Nor do I really feel like explaining the historic racial schisms of the east to white people who have never been to the continent. But as a fun experiment, next time you meet a Han from mainland China, ask their opinions about Manchu people. It should be a fun learning experience!